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Post by LowKey on Dec 21, 2014 12:00:42 GMT
Let me add a caveat to my 10mm statement: in my perfect world where an abundance of competence and proper training would accompany all things policy and military--10mm would be a badass sidearm or PDW caliber. Lol, okay. I was gonna say . . . what do you want man? Total Anarchy?! An abundance of two rectangle shaped scars on foreheads from bouncing the rear sight off their heads? Here's an evil thought. Hot 10mm for a sidearm, then someone come up with a wildcat based on a longer cartridge case that will take 10mm (think .22short to .22LR/ 10mm to 10mm LR) in a SBR type set up. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 21, 2014 16:05:23 GMT
Why not issue a modern/polymer rendition of the grease gun? Yes, the original was a stamped steel open bolt with a scary safety - but those that were issued them loved them and hated the thought of having to move to the heavier Thompson design. They were cheap to make, reliable, and as stupid proof as you could make for a grunt. Something like the BT MP9 but in blowback? Yeah, those Grease Guns didn't wear out they were taken out of service. Why they were taken out of service is because we didn't think tankers needed guns anymore. Well, turns out they did and the M9 didn't cut it against Muji-Muji and the funky bunch with AKs. I think a 9mm Grease Gun could be easily made because they did have a 9mm kit for it. Really, it doesn't have to be polymer, just some modern design techniques applies to it. A longer 10mm case? How about 9x25mm? Really, that case has legs, 9x25mm gets up in the 1500-1600 FPS range with a 90 gr bullet out of a handgun. Out of a subgun with an 8-10" barrel, holy crap, 1800-2000? |
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Post by nxp on Dec 21, 2014 16:44:54 GMT
The Dillon? 357Sig Super? The Dillon was always one of those good ideas that just didn't really work like it was supposed to - it just beat the snot out of anything thing that it was put into as folks tried to make it work in IPSC Major. It might work better in a subgun over a pistola, but I still think it'd be hard on parts.
It definitely offers some advantages over the standard straight walled cart, but I think it would face a number of hurdles, starting immediately with the brass. 10mm isn't as common as 40, and has different specs. Why not take a lesson from the Ruski's and use a cart that we already have and go with something like a hopped up 400 Corbon using 45 Super/Cut down .308 brass - we've got 45ACP, we want to use 200gr HC thumpers, and we've already got plenty of subguns designed around the 45ACP.
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Post by LowKey on Dec 21, 2014 17:46:38 GMT
The Dillon? 357Sig Super? The Dillon was always one of those good ideas that just didn't really work like it was supposed to - it just beat the snot out of anything thing that it was put into as folks tried to make it work in IPSC Major. It might work better in a subgun over a pistola, but I still think it'd be hard on parts. It definitely offers some advantages over the standard straight walled cart, but I think it would face a number of hurdles, starting immediately with the brass. 10mm isn't as common as 40, and has different specs. Why not take a lesson from the Ruski's and use a cart that we already have and go with something like a hopped up 400 Corbon using 45 Super/Cut down .308 brass - we've got 45ACP, we want to use 200gr HC thumpers, and we've already got plenty of subguns designed around the 45ACP. .45 Long Auto-Colt by Corbon? .45 Long Auto-Mag?  Slightly OT- Wish .510 Whisper (.510 BO) would fit in a standard AR-10 mag. I like the numbers on .458 SOCOM, but hate the teensy tiny mag capacity. Just as .300 BO fits and feeds in a standard AR with a barrel swap, wish .510 would do the same in an AR10. Honestly, where I am what I need is a sidearm (covered with my 10mm Glock) and a stout rifle cartridge for heavy aggressive bruins that can also serve in the SBR role for two legged predators with a side of long rage work (with a rainbow like trajectory considered acceptable). Sort of like a hi-cap semi-auto friendly 45-70 (.450 marlin has a belted case resulting in issues when it gets stacked deep). Okay, rant off...I feel better now. |
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2014 5:03:16 GMT
I ways liked the idea of a 9x25 Dillon or a .357 Auto. (*Click*). Also like the idea of a PDW in a 10mm case necked down to 7.65. That would be screaming out of a PDW. I owned a .357 Sig for quite awhile and while I liked it I got sick of stocking slightly uncommon ammo when the 10mm was available and had more versatility. So I got the fullsize 10mm, still miss the .357 Sig sometimes though. Love me some funky bottle-necked action. The US Military could do whatever they wanted to though. Some newer shooters might have an issue with recoil, but a 10mm-necked down-to-a-7.65 while loud as a MF'er should be okay in recoil. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 22, 2014 11:36:46 GMT
We could go like all Soviet on this bizznitch: 7.62x25mm. Yeassss, the original fast SMG mover capable of defeating soft body armor. Come up with AP, HP, OTM and ball rds. A good brass case, kick the speed up to 1600-2000 FPS with a 70 gr bullet. Wrap a purpose built light weight polymer Grease Gun around it. Or maybe a bullpup like the new Chinese PDW. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QCW-05 |
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2014 16:12:50 GMT
I often wondered why the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact replaced the 7.62x25 with a 9mm Makarov
Seems a bit stupid. The x25 Tok blows it out of the water, was combat tested and worked great.
If it had of existed on the Eastern Front during WWII the 9mm Mak would have been suitable in the hands of a Soviet Officer to execute prisoners, shoot ones own troops if they weren't willing to charge German tanks and infantry bare handed and pick up a rifle from ones own dead as they became available or blow their brains out to avoid capture.
I mean if 8 PanzerGrenadiers were charging you with empty rifles and fixed bayonets would you rather have an eight rd 7.62x25 Tokarev or an eight rd 9mm Makarov?
Also wondered why bottle necked cartridges aren't more popular. Always thought that there was a certain mystique and coolness factor to them.
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Post by nxp on Dec 22, 2014 16:24:12 GMT
Necked cartridges are 20% cooler than everything else - but they're also slightly more involved to reload over a straight wall cart, they often require some amount of case trimming because of the higher pressure, and while they're more reliable in chambering vs the straight wall bullet design has a lot to do with the success of straight wall carts to load easily.
Funny that China has figured it out - QCW-05 uses the 5.8x21, ballisticly a 5.7 Short. Okay US war machine, why again aren't we use the 5.7? A 5.7mm is a 0.224 and change, so why can't we adapt current steel core to this round? TCU?!
For the record, I love my TOK - I loved it even more when I could by bricks for 75 bucks, but I still love the round and it's one of my favorite pistol rounds, I just wish the soviets had made a gun that was worth a crap - if you're going to copy Browning, COPY BROWNING. The CZ52 was fun, but I'm not a roller lock fan and the action wasn't as strong as the TT33. No way I'd shoot sub rounds out of a CZ, but my TT33 eats them just fine (which reminds me, I need to get a new recoil spring for it).
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2014 16:42:24 GMT
Necked cartridges are 20% cooler than everything else - but they're also slightly more involved to reload over a straight wall cart, they often require some amount of case trimming because of the higher pressure, and while they're more reliable in chambering vs the straight wall bullet design has a lot to do with the success of straight wall carts to load easily. Does that translate into any more work at the factory on new bottle-necked case pistol ammo? I knew for instance that 357 Sig was slightly more of a pain in the ass for a civilian reloader because of re-sizing and slightly more case lube. Was thinking at the factory it would be about the same and in the field isn't Mil brass just picked up to deny the enemy the cases is possible or just left laying where it is? |
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Post by nxp on Dec 22, 2014 18:18:17 GMT
Great question - I don't know the logistics of that side. It might be a little more involved as they would need another die for the run, but they aren't reloading so they don't need to worry about the rest of it.
I can't see anyone out side of a range policing brass, however. More speculation than fact on the last.
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2014 19:07:36 GMT
My step-father was in Vietnam with the Marines and one of the few stories he told was of trying to police brass that they'd fired to deny the enemy the ability to scavenge while occasionally getting shot at.
Doesn't mean that they'd do that now or that it would be a current policy, but there is that thought process.
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Post by LowKey on Dec 22, 2014 19:08:47 GMT
Great question - I don't know the logistics of that side. It might be a little more involved as they would need another die for the run, but they aren't reloading so they don't need to worry about the rest of it. I can't see anyone out side of a range policing brass, however. More speculation than fact on the last. Well, not that I can speak for anyone else in the armed forces, I've never seen brass collected off a range. Maybe some high speed low drag super secret operators, but no one else seems to pick up brass. They know we lit them up, so we aren't hiding anything, and they have their own brass if they wanted any for shenanigans. |
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2014 19:19:04 GMT
Well . . . he wasn't some super secret operator and it wasn't like they were policing up their trash and brass to prevent anyone from knowing where they were at.
He was a .50 cal machine gunner on a Deuce and a Half doing convoys and he was saying that there was an effort on the part of the officers to order the troops to clean everything up. This was to deny the VC/NVA any material to work with period because they could make something out of virtually nothing in some jungle workshop using rudimentary tools, sweat and some ingenuity.
That might have been war specific to Vietnam though.
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Post by LowKey on Dec 22, 2014 19:42:59 GMT
Well . . . he wasn't some super secret operator and it wasn't like they were policing up their trash and brass to prevent anyone from knowing where they were at. He was a .50 cal machine gunner on a Deuce and a Half doing convoys and he was saying that there was an effort on the part of the officers to order the troops to clean everything up. This was to deny the VC/NVA any material to work with period because they could make something out of virtually nothing in some jungle workshop using rudimentary tools, sweat and some ingenuity. That might have been war specific to Vietnam though. Quite possibly. IIRC, in that theater they also wanted to prevent Charlie from picking up old c-rat cans...likely for the same reason. There's also the fact that officers sometimes have a tenuous grasp on reality. |
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Post by homerj on Jan 11, 2015 5:45:17 GMT
Looks like Big Army is serious about a new pistol, it rejected the new M9a3 without even evaluating a sample according to Beretta. I have the sneaky suspicion this is partly because most O-6s and above in this decision making process haven't had a rifle/carbine assigned as their primary weapon for a while. This is so ass backwards, they should have let the M16/M4 replacement run its course and just upgrade the M9. www.military.com/daily-news/2015/01/09/army-rejects-m9a3-proposal-opts-for-new-pistol.html |
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