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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 18, 2014 19:18:30 GMT
Second.
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 18, 2014 19:36:14 GMT
Cool, I accept. Done deal. As my first official action I'm completely cutting aid to all the countries that hate our guts (Can I do that? It's already done). All Mil personnel are immediately getting an increase in pay with some of the money saved and I'll start the interviews with a metric fuckton of NCO's across the board in every branch and MOS on what they think they need.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Dec 18, 2014 19:38:22 GMT
Lots of great input Omega, Lowkey and Homer. This has completely realigned my perception of what role the military service pistol serves. Wow, what a clusterfuck. FWIW, I was an 0311 (rifleman) in the USMC, and I don't remember even familiarization firing the M9 during infantry school, nor anytime afterwards. I never even held one the entire time I was in. Seriously. Line infantry, and if it had come down to pistols and entrenching tools I would have had to grab a shovel, because I knew nothing about pistols at the time. Some MOS's 'rate' a pistol (or at least did, they may not now), and certain ranks also 'rated' a pistol. 0311 was not one of those MOS's, and I topped out at E5, not a high enough rank for a pistol - - that started at E6 (Staff Sgt.) or was for comissioned or warrant officers. A buddy of mine, also an 0311, somehow stumble fucked into a pistol qualification course and ended up getting an expert pistol badge out of it. Much jealous we were of the additional pretty blip he got to wear on his dress and service uniforms. I was never deployed, maybe the 0311 guys did at least some standard training on pistols prior to deployment?
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Post by LowKey on Dec 18, 2014 19:50:31 GMT
Not to derail or run OT, but I'd just like to point out how devoid of BS posturing this thread is. Haven't seen/heard a single person claim or imply they are or were a high speed low drag bulletproof super-bad-ass. All the jokes and BS'ing are of the mellow variety done by grown men who are confident and relaxed in themselves and as such can poke fun and have fun poked at them without it being a pride issue. That good ideas are recognized as good ideas even if the originator has little experience and bad ideas get short shrift even if the originator is/was experienced, ideas here stand on their merit not their pedigree.
Bravo gentlemen. Bravo.
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Post by homerj on Dec 19, 2014 0:59:38 GMT
The same thread would be locked by now for a 14 page flame war and there would be "that guy" who wants the Mosin Nagant to replace the M9..
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 19, 2014 1:33:00 GMT
The same thread would be locked by now for a 14 page flame war and there would be "that guy" who wants the Mosin Nagant Oberz to replace the M9.. FTFY.
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Post by RTF Squared on Dec 19, 2014 6:59:09 GMT
Lool at the group we attract. No zombie hunting Tapco vomited on SKS toting HSLD operational types, just doods who like to have varied discussions on real topics, based on actual experience they possess.
I think B35 as SecDef is a sound decision, and he had a good game plan in place.
I also think going to pistoley PDW type weapons would be a good way to fly. MP7s and something that bridges the gap between the FiveseveN and P90 as far as portability and capacity would be sweet. Enough power to be carried as a primary of sorts for types generally issues a pistol, but portable enough to be slung as a secondary type for direct combatants.
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 20, 2014 16:16:13 GMT
Lool at the group we attract. No zombie hunting Tapco vomited on SKS toting HSLD operational types, just doods who like to have varied discussions on real topics, based on actual experience they possess. Yeah, we have a good crew and mix here. Couldn't ask for better. I've always wondered at what point the US Military was going to have to worry about an enemy regularly equipped with body armor again and be forced to address that. Either with a PDW for support troops and/or a pistol able to penetrate soft body armor or probably both. Seems like it's starting to hit that point and you're seeing it more and more. I mean in the beginning there was really no body armor period for most of the worlds armies. WWI German MG crews with that weird knight-looking steel breastplate and steel spike helmet and US air crews on bombers had flak-type body armor during WWII, but neither were really walking around, much less running, crouching, diving behind cover or clearing rooms. They were just standing there chugging away at the Luftwaffe with .50 cal's Memphis Belle-style or stationary in a trench. They were pretty much the only troops that I know of to receive body armor before the US Military became involved in Vietnam. Then the other Western armies got it. Then the Soviets got it. Then the rest of the Warsaw Pact got it. After that Israel got it and then even China got it (and they have more soldiers than they know what to do with). I think that was one of the reasons the US Military switched to M855 over M193, because of increased Soviet body armor issue and usage (correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that somewhere). The Cold War never popped off into a hot one, but there was that long line of conflicts between the US Military and guerrilla forces, some peacekeeping during the civil wars of 2nd world nations or conventional conflicts against 3rd World troops almost none of whom had body armor. Vietnam Cambodia Grenada Lebanon Panama Persian Gulf/Kuwait Somalia Macedonia Bosnia Haiti Iraq Afghanistan ...And limited humanitarian as well as anti-terror related fun-n-games in Georgia, Djibouti, Kenya, Ethiopia, Yemen, Eritrea, Sierra Leone, Liberia and a bunch of other countries where the troops and insurgent combatants don't usually wear body armor. Really though, the last time the US had to worry about the standard line of soldiers/combatants that they'd be going into battle against and that regularly wore body armor was with these guys . . . At any rate my point is with this long as fuck post is that it seems like for a long time with pistols and SMG's in 9mm the only reason the US Military has gotten away with using it so far is that so few insurgents, guerrilla's, terrorists, 3rd world soldiers and general dirtbags taking part in the upheaval are equipped with body armor. I've never been in that part of the world (so what the fuck do I know except what I read in books and articles, see on YouTube/Liveleak videos or in documentaries), but it seems like that's starting to change though. Starting to be lots of MoFo's running around in body armor these days. Especially ISIS/ISIL. They seem to have money or are capturing it from somewhere. Since 2003 I've watched the Iraqi Insurgents and the Taliban go from wearing black pajamas, Adidas track outfits, jeans and t-shirts and man-dresses and turbans to wearing actual uniforms, chest rigs and now at times it seems like about 50 to 25% of them are wearing body armor. They've always had the same Chinese and Romanian AK's and RPG's and the occasional M-16/FAL/G3, but it seems like the rest of their gear has changed gradually. Since 2003 and '04 they've gone from looking this (2003). . . . . . . and this (2004) . . . . . .to this (2013 and '14). I mean they still have their jean and t-shirt wearers . . . . . ., but overall it's changed. Check it out, the overall feel looks a little more professional. Hour long ISIS video of assassinations, bombings and drive-by's (*Click*)Islamic State - 9 Episodes from VICE (*Click*)Besides the lack of body armor with insurgents and guerrillas there's also the fact that pistols are secondary weapons and not used as much and that H &K MP5's and the like are being used by only a few units and only in limited circumstances. I mean the 5.7 that makes it through a vest and penetrates 4 inches into tissue is better than a 9mm that doesn't penetrate at all, but I wonder what the tipping point will be when the US Military switches to something that'll penetrate body armor. I'm surprised that some of the non-AP 5.7 from the pistol didn't make it through. Kind of a decent argument for a PDW in lieu of a pistol for some. Brassfetcher 5.7 stats in gel - PDF (*Click*)
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Post by omegaman on Dec 20, 2014 16:40:54 GMT
I think the 5.7 has legs, and has so for some time. I mean, when did FN release the P90? Mid-90's? For the the sole purpose as a PDW replacement for pistol caliber sidearms and to punch thru armor. If ammo was cheaper and available in bulk, I think more people would be shooting it. Oddly, I think we are in an era where civilian shooters have alot of sway and influence on the military. I think 6.8SPC, .300 win mag, and .300BLK would be good examples. It would also be nice to see a few more conventional (and cheaper) platforms in 5.7. I mean, a bull barreled bolt action 5.7 for varmit hunting? Yes please! I guess what I am saying, is that if 5.7 caught in popularity among the civvy shooting world it might gain traction among the military circles. With that said, we need a 5.7 pistol that is not the FN five-seven, i.e. sans goofy-ass index finger safety--wtf is that about? Or a Kel-tec sub-2000 in 5.7? I would fuck the shit outta that!
I guess the overall PDW cause is helped by the MP7 and its use by SEALs, but, unfortunately HK makes it. In keeping with their odd business policy they, at best, may produce a horribly bulky "sporterized" version at $3k with $100 mags and a limited run of their proprietary ammo. (Give us the good stuff, HK, I mean, seriously, why is the MP5 not like a $500 gun???)
Oh well, I think 10mm would be a bad-ass military round. 200 gr. hardcast bullets for donkey-punches thru armor or 135gr hollow points for evaporating terrorist skulls...yeah, I'll be in my bunk...
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 20, 2014 19:20:34 GMT
Yeah. If they marketed it differently, if other companies besides FNH picked up the caliber (I'm looking at you Hornady, Federal and SSA) and if there were more guns available for it I think the 5.7x28 would be shit hot right now. I'd definitely buy a couple guns in. 5.7 if the guns themselves weren't set at astronomical prices and if the ammo was more available. I almost bought a Five-seveN pistol a few years ago even *WITH* the ammo being the way it is, my impulse control wouldn't be able to counteract that if everything was cheaper/more available. Besides a pistol and an SBR'ed 5.7 carbine I'd love to have an ultra-light bolt action in 5.7x28 with a carbon fiber barrel for coyote and small game hunting. Would be kinda like a .22 Hornet (except not dying on the vine like the Hornet is, that's another lil kickass cartridge. On the 10mm (as much as I love it, it's my second favorite pistol caliber overall and my number one favorite for a woods gun) I dunno about it as a one-size-fits-everyone Military pistol. Much of that stems from what you were talking about a couple pages ago with the lack of training on the pistol now in the Military (although I kinda thought that way a little already, what you said just cemented it more). Supposedly the pistol training is getting an upgrade though. Least for Marines. USMC Handgun Training Underway Nov 2014 - TFB (*Click*)I'm just meaning that the FBI tried the 10mm out agency-wide and it didn't work out back then due to the same basic reason. Lowest common denominator. It wasn't cause the FBI SWAT dudes and field agents couldn't hang with the big dogs on a larger gun that recoiled a bit more, it was because of all the non-gun people in the FBI for whom qualifying with a 9mil took some work. A 10mm PDW would be badass though. Makes me think of that Cooper inspired ' Thumper' only in 10mm instead of .44 AutoMag. Loaded to hot levels that would be awesome. 10mm - Ballistics by the inch (*Click*)-------------------------------- Too bad the Military can't just do what many Police Depts do now and let them buy whatever they want off an approved list for duty. • They'd save money • The people who wanted a pistol but who weren't issued one would have one. • It would be set up specifically for them. • In short everyone would be happy except the armorer (unless they were getting paid more to learn about repairing an even wider spectrum of guns and then they could set up shop or work for a PD when they got out). Only downside would be that mags couldn't always be shared, but does that happen all that often anyway with pistols in the Military?
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 20, 2014 19:37:05 GMT
I'm still thinking the way to go is the MP7 or P90. P90 for the capacity and MP7 because it gets small and can be worn/shot like a regular pistol. The P90 does have more energy and better terminal ballistics. Both are easily suppressed and can run sub sonic ammo. I really don't' see 300BO being a viable .mil round apart from very select missions. I'd like to see suppressors gain more favor, maybe something integral with heat shields. Because holy shit would there would be an ass load of burns from goof balls touching hot cans.
I had a PS90 and a FN57. Both are very accurate, zero felt recoil but at the time I could find any ammo and sold them. Oh well, however, neither should cost what they do. The PS90 is a plastic shell a plastic trigger group, a CHF barrel and blow back bolt. Meh, it should cost $700-800. FN pistol is blow back too and all polymer, when it doesn't cost what a Glcok does, I have no clue. And why hasn't Glock made a 5.7 pistol. Gaston, your time has come.
Yeah, when PSA comes out with their Glock mag lowers, mines going to be a 10mm. 6-8" barrel, make some hot loads and it would be the thumper.
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Post by omegaman on Dec 20, 2014 20:22:06 GMT
Let me add a caveat to my 10mm statement: in my perfect world where an abundance of competence and proper training would accompany all things policy and military--10mm would be a badass sidearm or PDW caliber.
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 20, 2014 21:51:53 GMT
Let me add a caveat to my 10mm statement: in my perfect world where an abundance of competence and proper training would accompany all things policy and military--10mm would be a badass sidearm or PDW caliber. Lol, okay. I was gonna say . . . what do you want man? Total Anarchy?! An abundance of two rectangle shaped scars on foreheads from bouncing the rear sight off their heads?
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 21, 2014 1:40:04 GMT
One thing on the tapco SKS zombie guns, it not that their bad but it's that they think they're legit and the pinnacle of performance. I have an unmolested SKS and I have a good time shooting it. But it's not a modern rifle and has several serious failings.
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Post by nxp on Dec 21, 2014 2:37:29 GMT
Why not issue a modern/polymer rendition of the grease gun?
Yes, the original was a stamped steel open bolt with a scary safety - but those that were issued them loved them and hated the thought of having to move to the heavier Thompson design. They were cheap to make, reliable, and as stupid proof as you could make for a grunt.
Something like the BT MP9 but in blowback?
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