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Post by Browning35 on Sept 28, 2014 1:59:15 GMT
My mistake, it was a 125gr GDHP doing 386lbs out of a 3" SP101. Based on what I hear about their true velocity figures I imagine its a whole lot lower than that. I've noticed that most ammo companies fudge on the high side on their ballistics and then claim environmental or equipment differences when asked about it. I don't know about Speer, but Buffalo Bore's stats are at least grounded in reality. Yep. Yeah, on most loads they're really pretty similar. .380 in comparison to the .38 Spl is kind of like how you hear 7.62x39 and 30-30 being compared. Bit more velocity in some 30-30 loads and more grain weight in some loads. They're both more similar than they are dissimilar. Since we were talking about Buffalo Bore though if you look on both the heaviest of the .380 loads and the lightest of the .38 Spl snubbie loads to try to make them meet in the middle the .380 is actually going a bit faster and hitting a bit harder (but is still missing 30 grain). I get the illusion and get why people think that though I thought the same thing in looking at them when I was first exposed to them. I don't think a few FPS or a few ft- lbs this way or that matter that much, but you get what I mean. Pretty similar. Just as a tag on, this isn't new info but pistol calibers suck for what we expect from them. In fact, they're piss poor human stoppers and the only thing that can be factored in is hitting something that bleeds them out or them not wanting to be shot again. Humans, even if they're spurting blood, can still function and fight for at least 30 seconds if not much longer. Strangely enough Dannus and I were PMing each other about rifle vs pistol caliber gunshot wounds and were both basically saying much the same thing as what you said above. Pistol calibers do kind of suck. The vast majority of people shot with them survive the experience. |
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Post by as556 on Sept 28, 2014 2:02:53 GMT
If don't mind me being nosy, what rifle caliber wounds have you guys seen? Any in torso at 5-X meters as opposed to self inflicted? If inappropriate, disregard.
Conversely, anybody have a good source for reading material involving case studies of OIS/HD/DGU/"street" ballistics? I often hear people cite these or talk about them, but Ive never really seen more than a couple.
While I'm already asking inappropriate shit, do any combat vets care to share their opinion of the lethality of 5.56 in combat? I'd be lying through my teeth to say I'm not curious, wrong as that is. War and the things it requires men do is a scourge to our kind, but I'm a firm believer that since it is an integral part of our culture as humans that the only way to mitigate the horribleness for our side is to be really fucking good at it. This goes for self defense for civvies as well. Just my opinion, of course.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Sept 28, 2014 2:20:59 GMT
Well, any sort of medical training and simple observation of terminal pistol ballistics will show a very thin, perhaps marginally bigger that the diameter of the cartridge crush type wound pattern. Some have said it's like taking a piece of steel and ramming it into the body at 1000 fps. There isn't disruption of tissue apart from what's crushed. It may break bones but temporary cavities do not cause permanent trauma. Temporary is simply that, temporary. The tissue will expand away from the force that's driven against it but being very elastic and mostly liquid, it will rebound and retain it's original configuration i.e. muscle tissue will open up into a large cavity but will return to normal size once the 'force' had dissipated.
Unless the permanent cavity, the actual body tissue destroyed by the shot, traverses a vein or artery, CNS or other life supporting organ, it's not going to incapacitate the aggressor. Even if the shot traverses a major artery or even right through the heart there is still enough oxygenated blood to propel the human for at least 30-45 second, bare minimum. Most people can go one much longer.
Shots that disrupt the brain function are the only ones that could reliably considered to be almost instant incapacitation. Then, there are people who've survived suicide attempts to even call 911 for aid.
Generally, rifle caliber weapons do a much better job for what we expect. 9, 40, 45, 10mm, 380 and whatever else we carry, they're all impotent. Yes, it's repetitive to say but expecting a blaster to do what we want creates a false expectation. The last thing anyone needs is pulling their 45 ACP 1911 and emptying the mag only to find the aggressor still functional and able to do you harm.
Have a back up plan.
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Post by redeyes on Sept 28, 2014 4:28:22 GMT
Here's my take, the G42 is thinner than a snubby. The G42 has better sights, higher capacity and a much faster reload. Terminal ballistics on both are equal, I shoot the G42 much faster and more accurately than I ever did with a snubby. Granted, I like both guns but putting them both on paper, it's the G42 all day. 
Yeah, when I was new to firearms, various gunrags had me thinking a snubbie in each jacket or shoot me first vest pocket and a commander .45 on the hip was the way to go.
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Post by redeyes on Sept 28, 2014 5:07:14 GMT
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Post by Browning35 on Sept 28, 2014 5:53:37 GMT
If don't mind me being nosy, what rifle caliber wounds have you guys seen? Any in torso at 5-X meters as opposed to self inflicted? If inappropriate, disregard. Conversely, anybody have a good source for reading material involving case studies of OIS/HD/DGU/"street" ballistics? I often hear people cite these or talk about them, but Ive never really seen more than a couple. I don't mind. It's not like I have to go to my happy place or anything when I talk about it because I'm all traumatized. Like most Fire/EMS guys the majority of the gunshot wounds I saw were the result of handguns. Treated 10 or so GSW's that were caused by long guns (do bullet fragments count as a 'gunshot wound'?) and once I throw out the pistol calibers (.22LR and 9mm) I'm left with 8 I think. .223, 7.62x39, 30-30 and .243. A couple of those were repeats. Mostly they were the result of a bunch of drive-by's and then a domestic argument, a revenge shooting over drugs and a police vehicle stop. Somewhere around 40-something all total with handgun calibers included. I'm not counting suicides where we basically walked in and said ' Yep, they're dead'. If you count those it's around 50 and add either a .270 or a. 30-06 (I'm not sure which on a couple of them, I wasn't walking across all that to look). Sometimes you can tell caliber right away as the brass is underneath your feet and you're trying to avoid messing up a crime scene and the gun is right there. Sometimes you don't find out the caliber until after the call is over and you ask one of the cops that was on-scene later on what brass they recovered. Or sometimes you don't find out what it was period. They never find the gun or the shooter and you never know. Completely depends. We were taught in school to try to identify the caliber for the report and surgeons (they can often tell the approximate grain weight, doesn't matter as much now due to some of the imaging they have available currently though), but to leave the report open ended just in case they turned out to have been shot with something else (the run report is technically a legal document). You use terms like 'approximately 9mm in size', 'was possibly shot with a 9mm' or 'Officer John Smith stated that patient was probably shot with a 9mm handgun'. Most times it doesn't matter that much and if you find out that's great, go ahead and include it, but if you can't it's not that big of a deal. Run sheets are sometimes turned in without a name, birthdate or anything as they can't tell you, no friends or family were at the scene and no ID on them. Having said all that : Except for general information like the size of the wound, first aid and things of that nature I'd totally disregard what most medics have to say on that kind of thing though. We aren't soldiers and even the worst criminal isn't going to fight us that much after they just got shot several times because A) Getting shot sucks and they don't want to fight because they're no longer feeling up to it and B) They know that we're trying to help them and save their life. Just saying, our focus is different. Plus we generally weren't there when it all went down. We also aren't medical examiners where we get to see the wound track either. We're more seeing the entrance and the exit (unless a Remington Golden Sabre lays that shit open like a Christmas Turkey). - There used to be Marshall and Sanow (I know, I'm totally dating myself here), but I think their work has been discredited. Try looking up Fackler. As far as I know he's pretty much the only game in town for street ballistics. There's that one guy Doc Roberts, but I believe he's a dentist or something and most of his stuff has been the result of studies he's put together from other people and aren't his own work. I don't really know much about that guy. I've heard both good and bad about him and I've seen internets blow up with arguments about him. I don't really follow that type of thing too much and I don't have a dog in that fight. Just saying what I've heard. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Oct 5, 2014 15:52:38 GMT
Stippled the front and back strap.   100% improvement. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Nov 16, 2014 14:24:47 GMT
I watched this entire series because I'm a home body if I'm not at the gym, kids activities, etc. Anywho, if the 380 ACP can get to 13" per FBI spec, apart from the low capacity what's wrong with it?
I was running Federal Hydrashock but got a few boxes of Hornady XTP.
Thoughts?
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Post by redeyes on Nov 17, 2014 11:59:01 GMT
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Post by redeyes on Nov 17, 2014 19:20:13 GMT
I watched this entire series because I'm a home body if I'm not at the gym, kids activities, etc. Anywho, if the 380 ACP can get to 13" per FBI spec, apart from the low capacity what's wrong with it? I was running Federal Hydrashock but got a few boxes of Hornady XTP. Thoughts? What was the test pistol for these tests? I can't remember exactly, but I don't think it was the Glock 42. I think the pistol he was testing had around a 2 inch barrel. Do you think the longer barrel of the Glock and the polygonal rifling would change the test results? But yeah, that performance is amazing out of a short barreled .380. Ammo manufacturers are changing the game. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Nov 17, 2014 20:02:07 GMT
He used the Taurus 380 tcp. Yes, thats a shorter barrel and poly barrel would increase muzzle velocity. I need to chrono mine.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Nov 17, 2014 21:07:09 GMT
If don't mind me being nosy, what rifle caliber wounds have you guys seen? Any in torso at 5-X meters as opposed to self inflicted? If inappropriate, disregard. Conversely, anybody have a good source for reading material involving case studies of OIS/HD/DGU/"street" ballistics? I often hear people cite these or talk about them, but Ive never really seen more than a couple. While I'm already asking inappropriate shit, do any combat vets care to share their opinion of the lethality of 5.56 in combat? I'd be lying through my teeth to say I'm not curious, wrong as that is. War and the things it requires men do is a scourge to our kind, but I'm a firm believer that since it is an integral part of our culture as humans that the only way to mitigate the horribleness for our side is to be really fucking good at it. This goes for self defense for civvies as well. Just my opinion, of course. Here was my portion of the conversation about GSW's that Browning35 and I were having, the red portion deals with .223 hits: "Yes, definitely mirrors my experience. Far and away the most GSW's I've dealt with are pistols, and, like you, once you take away the suicides and the point blank, back of the head murders, I've almost become cavalier about how often people survive pistol shots. My most recent shooting was a drug deal gone wrong where one guy put 4 .40 JHP of some kind into a guys gut from about 4 feet away and he survived with no complications. Likewise, we recently had a dirtbag shot SEVEN TIMES with LE G21's using Critical Duty JHP, including a head shot and several torso shots. He's fine. Unbelieveable...
I've actually only responded to two .223 rifle hits, both were LE shootings. One was a shot from about 30 feet away, dead in the center of the bad guys breastbone. As far as I could tell he was dead by the time he hit the pavement. We worked him, but mostly just out of SOP. Another was a shot to a guys melon from about the same distance. He's writing his ABC's in crayon for the rest of his life, but survived.
The .22 shootings I've seen were all suicides, and all successful as far as I can recall.
I've seen a number of shotgun suicides that were successful, and one shotgun hit to the torso that removed most of the patient's left thorax. He also survived.
I would actually assume that a person whose response area includes rural territory would see more rifle/shotgun injuries, if for no other reason than there is more recreational use of those firearms in the country."OmegaMan is the only guy I know who frequents this board who has extensive experience downrange using M16s and variants. He may or may not want to discuss the details of such in this forum. |
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Post by as556 on Nov 18, 2014 2:12:20 GMT
Kind of disconcerting about the pistol rounds being so ineffective. Can't say the .223 part surprised me, Ive always considered it to be pretty capable. Good to hear my thoughts validated with real experience. I think OM mentioned once in a thread the 5.56mm works just fine. In addition to that I think it's acknowledged by most now that when 5.56 does get a bad rap its due to military ball ammo (mostly M855), and that the civilian defensive loadings are a whole different animal. Heavy OTMs and bonded soft points do not fuck around. Thanks for chiming in with your opinion on the subject, Dannus.
In a slightly related note, Im seriously considering getting into healthcare, potentially an EMT. I find the subject fascinating lately and like helping people. I'm only 24 so I could get through the schooling and be relatively young.
Picking a career sucks. I'm sick of working dead end jobs that my heart isn't in, though.
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Post by as556 on Nov 18, 2014 2:19:50 GMT
About the .380, Ive researched it a good bit, had a TCP briefly (good gun, Ill buy another), and best I can tell Critical Defense, Hydrashok, and XTP work best. The XTP by nature expands marginally and penetrates deep, which is good if you're of the mind that .380 JHP underpenetrates. Hydrashok and CD seem to work just fine, too.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Nov 18, 2014 14:23:48 GMT
At the risk of a complete derail, getting your EMT or paramedic training will almost guarantee you can find a job (at least in my AO) with a transport service, although that entry level position will likely be pretty high stress and not paid particularly well. That said, either one of those certifications can serve as a good entry point into a variety of health-care professions. I think one of our local schools offers a paramedic to RN bridge program, and all the major hospitals in the area use EMT's and Paras as patient care techs in their ERs and on other units, which can lead to other positions within the hospital once you are in their system. Don't know if you have any interest in a FD career, but a pretty large number of departments are requiring at least an existing EMT cert as a condition of employment. Browning35 and I can give you some guidance in this area, but lets take it to PM or start another thread so as not to shit up GBM's review. |
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