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Post by dannusmaximus on Jan 13, 2014 18:15:23 GMT
Stain, I will see your novel and raise you a novel of my own...
The link you posted to is a pretty well-known problem, Stain. A person who gets a minimum wage job (or two) suddenly starts to lose safety net benefits, to the point that it is a disincentive to actually find a job. I think a solution is to scale benefits so that a person who is working in a low wage job gets their benefits reduced instead of suddenly cut off. It should NEVER be more lucrative to not work then it is to work.
Now, about that post you made on the 11th...
"If you don't like your job, find another one..." Sounds A LOT like "If you are having problem 'X' where you live at, just move..." Both suggestions are RIDICULOUSLY OVERSIMPLIFIED, and you know it. Come to think of it, "Join the military..." "Get an associates degree..." are equally oversimplified, but you know that, too.
Your life story is admirable, let me summarize:
1. Started working at age 16.
2. Family friend who manages a factory offers me a job for double what I'm making. I accept it.
3. Job pays better but is rough and shitty, so I join the military (ironically, a choice that often results in rough, shitty work...)
4. Got out of the military and went to school, eventually getting a MS in Computer Science.
5. Profit
Does that about cover it? Excellent. A fine story which illustrates that you had the mental and physical ability, a strong work ethic (likely inherited from two parents who gave a shit about you, but maybe not), and a little bit of luck that added up to being a financially self-sufficient person. Sounds remarkably like my story, which probably sounds remarkably like the story of many others who frequent this forum.
It is at this point that I like to point out how likely unexceptional you are (and I am) considering your abilities and likely upbringing. Since I don't know you personally, I'll use myself as an example of 'upbringing'...
1. Had two parents.
2. Said parents loved me and wanted me.
3. Said parents were bright and hardworking, qualities passed onto me both by nature and nurture.
4. Said parents stuck a boot in my ass when I needed it and supported me always.
5. Said parents made sure I went to school with a full belly and clean clothes.
6. Choices made by said parents guided me to make good choices as far as peers and personal behavior.
7. Profit
Given the above upbringing, it would have been REMARKABLE for me to grow up to be a guy who is stuck in a minimum wage job and thinks that's fine. Agreed? The UNREMARKABLE result would be a guy (who like you) works hard and achieves some modicum of financial and personal success. Agreed?
Now, let me make a few adjustments to the above seven points. These adjustments will reflect the upbringing of the vast majority of folks who were raised in the shithole neighborhoods that my fire station serves:
1. Had one parent, almost invariably the mother.
2. Parent(s) sometimes tried, but were largely indifferent.
3. Parents were neither bright nor hardworking, traits passed onto the child by nature and nurture.
4. Parents were quick to hit, but did not discipline in a structured or constructive way
5. May or may not have had breakfast, if so it was probably chips and soda. Probably did not have clean clothes or body.
6. Frequent witness to the bad choices and negative influence brought on by parent(s). Peer selection and personal behavior choices reflected this.
7. Fail
Can we agree that the above modified points would result in a person who would have to be truly exceptional to achieve the same level of 'success' that you or I have achieved? It can happen, of course, but it would be as remarkable as you or I growing up to be stuck in said minimum wage jobs with very little hope for a way up or out.
"Don't bitch about your life, change it..." Very easily said for you and I and GM. Discussion of 'living wages' or raising the minimum wage to the princely sum of $10 / hour is for those who can't so easily 'change their life' but do, against all odds, want to work and not live on the dole. I'm in those folks corner, even if it means I have to pay an extra nickel for a Big Mac.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Jan 13, 2014 18:48:36 GMT
Stain, I'm sitting at home with nothing to do, so I'll address your 'raise the minimum wage and provide healthcare destroys the economy' example. Lucky you!  The example you give is ridiculously, and I mean RIDICULOUSLY oversimplified. Among your presumptions... 1. Given an increase in wages, choices are limited to cutting personnel or raising prices. 2. Given provision of healthcare, choices are limited to cutting personnel or raising prices. 3. Increase in wages invariably results in an increase in inflation which negates the increase in wage. I'll start with point 1... Given an increase in wages, choices may include: 1. Simply accepting a reduction in profit by maintaining current levels of production, efficiency, and pricing. 2. Increasing demand for your product, which results in an increase in production and profit. 3. Diversifying production to include other items which will increase demand for your goods, and thus profit. 4. Increasing workforce and production efficiency to increase production which will increase profit. 5. Find other ways to cut costs, including energy efficiency, renegotiation of loan terms or materials contracts, partnering with other businesses, etc. To be sure, each of the above points carry their own variables, and are also not simple. However, it took me about 30 seconds to come up with that list (and my undergraduate work was largely in chemistry, not economics). A small business owner would no doubt have many more tricks up their sleeves, so the assumption that their only two cards to play are 'go out of business' or 'fire people' doesn't give much credence to the creativity and independent entrepreneurial spirit you think every working man or woman possesses... As far as the healthcare issue, you're already paying for it homey, either directly or indirectly. The business owner can directly pay for it by providing a healthcare benefit, or indirectly pay for it (i.e., pass it off to society, of which they are a part), but paying for people to be on Medicaid / Medicare. The sole alternative to that involves the willingness to throw those who can't afford healthcare (and their kids) to the wolves. If you can't pay for it or get a loan for it you're not getting health care. I don't think we want folks dying of an infected tooth in the richest country in the world, but maybe that's a social price we're all willing to pay so we don't have to pay an extra 25 cents for a Big Mac. Time will tell The relation between wages and inflation? I can simplify that as well as you can, mister! I can make 200 burritos a an 8 hour day using two employees. I pay them $5 an hour, charge $4 per burrito. Wages = $80 per day (total) or 10% of my burrito sales price. If I increase my wages by 20% to $6 an hour, (total of $96 per day), and production remains the same, I increase the percentage of my burrito labor cost by only 2% to 12% of sales price. A 20% increase in wages = a 2% increase in product price. I now need to charge an extra 2 cents for my employee to buy my burrito, leaving them 98 extra cents for other things once you figure in burrito inflation. See how easy that is? What?!?! I'm oversimplifying an incredibly complex financial interplay in the larger U.S. and global economy?!!? The hell you say! Want to oversimplify to the max? Try this on for size. There have been 29 hikes in the minimum wage since 1938. The U.S. GDP has increased from $1 trillion to $16 trillion in that same amount of time. Accordingly, for every increase in the minimum wage the U.S. GDP increases by a $15 trillion / 29. I mean, I'm not an economist, but I don't see how raising the minimum wage "hurts" the economy... |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jan 13, 2014 19:04:03 GMT
Dannus scribed "Don't bitch about your life, change it..." Very easily said for you and I and GM.""
Just as a point of order, I was never rich, raised by my mom, never took any hand outs, was on the honor roll/got honors just by hard work, and no one gave me a thing. I never lived in the lap of any luxury.
So yea, social issues can be overcome. A few things I've always done or not done, don't drink a lot, never did drugs, didn't party my butt off, and never ran afoul of the law.
So, no, in my case, it wasn't easy and still isn't but I'm not a quitter.
I'll read through the rest later.
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Post by NamelessStain on Jan 13, 2014 21:49:52 GMT
Given the above upbringing, it would have been REMARKABLE for me to grow up to be a guy who is stuck in a minimum wage job and thinks that's fine. Agreed? The UNREMARKABLE result would be a guy (who like you) works hard and achieves some modicum of financial and personal success. Agreed? Now, let me make a few adjustments to the above seven points. These adjustments will reflect the upbringing of the vast majority of folks who were raised in the shithole neighborhoods that my fire station serves: 1. Had one parent, almost invariably the mother. 2. Parent(s) sometimes tried, but were largely indifferent. 3. Parents were neither bright nor hardworking, traits passed onto the child by nature and nurture. 4. Parents were quick to hit, but did not discipline in a structured or constructive way 5. May or may not have had breakfast, if so it was probably chips and soda. Probably did not have clean clothes or body. 6. Frequent witness to the bad choices and negative influence brought on by parent(s). Peer selection and personal behavior choices reflected this. 7. Fail Can we agree that the above modified points would result in a person who would have to be truly exceptional to achieve the same level of 'success' that you or I have achieved? It can happen, of course, but it would be as remarkable as you or I growing up to be stuck in said minimum wage jobs with very little hope for a way up or out. "Don't bitch about your life, change it..." Very easily said for you and I and GM. Discussion of 'living wages' or raising the minimum wage to the princely sum of $10 / hour is for those who can't so easily 'change their life' but do, against all odds, want to work and not live on the dole. I'm in those folks corner, even if it means I have to pay an extra nickel for a Big Mac. I'll concede all of the talking points about my life just to shorten this post. But some things you might want to know. My dad grew up on the south side of Chicago and went into the USMC at age 17 which his mom had to sign the paper since he was under 18. My mom grew up in a small coal mining town with a population under 500. Mom had a high school degree, dad did not.... ever. Dad did 20 years and made it to E-8 before retiring. He worked everything from delivering candles to garbage truck driver until he died 6 months before retiring. Mom worked in anything from a candle supply warehouse to driving a school bus. No job was too demeaning if it put food on the table and clothes on our backs (except me, I got my brother's hand-me-downs). They never considered food stamps or welfare an option. Personal pride made them strive forward. Now as to the rest of what I quoted above. I had a subordinate in the Air Force named Bernie, an E1 fresh out of tech school. He was quirky to say the least. I was assigned to him to get him situated into our squadron. We were C-5 mechanics. I did what I thought was normal. Just go over the maintenance forms, find us tasks, and walk us through the fixes... nothing earth shattering. He picked it up relatively quickly. So we formed this bond which turned into friendship over the years. I was talking about going to college when I got out and using my GI Bill. I said something about I should have used the Community College of the Air Force to get some credits so I wouldn't have to take so many classes. Eventually I got out of the military and went to college. I kept contact with Bernie for 6-7 years when he said he was getting a new duty station and would be driving though my area. We met up. I thought it was the wrong person when he got out of the car. He was an O2! He completed his degree and got a commission. He said just being friends with me made him decide he wanted something better. I lost contact with him about 7 years ago, he was an O5 at that point. Here's the rub, Bernie was abused by his dad. Abuse on a scale I didn't think was possible. Nearly his entire back was scar tissue and probably 50% of his body had scar tissue. He said he lost count of broken bones as he grew up. Here's another one, much simpler. We all called him "Mr. Keith". He grew up in Compton. We talked and drank beer out on the fire escape when off duty. Somehow when we were drinking, the topic came up why did we all enlist. Mr. Keith just said "My baby deserves better than I got." Wow, no one knew he had a kid. He was sending half his pay home to help. He and his GF talked about it and he wanted E-5 so he could get on base housing easier. They agreed to get married then and moved onto base and he was going to LA to visit them twice a year. When I got out he was still E-5 but married and living on base spending his time with his family. So, yes, people can get out of shit lives and make it better for themselves. The problem is they need something to motivate them. Bernie it was getting away from his abusive father and Mr. Keith wanted a better life for his daughter. I agree the lack of parents caring or motivating is huge, maybe you could be a positive role model? Some nice day, just pull out a chair and sit in front of the firehouse and say hi to them. Get them talking and comfortable with you. Simple things can change a young life. Make some of those cheap recipes I gave you on the other thread and just hand out meatball subs to the kids. But get them to sit there and talk. Make some oatmeal from them to stop by on the way to school and let them eat it there and throw it in the trash when done. Talk to them. OK, I need to respond to your other thread split from this one  |
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Post by dannusmaximus on Jan 13, 2014 22:21:00 GMT
Dannus scribed "Don't bitch about your life, change it..." Very easily said for you and I and GM."" Just as a point of order, I was never rich, raised by my mom, never took any hand outs, was on the honor roll/got honors just by hard work, and no one gave me a thing. I never lived in the lap of any luxury. So yea, social issues can be overcome. A few things I've always done or not done, don't drink a lot, never did drugs, didn't party my butt off, and never ran afoul of the law. So, no, in my case, it wasn't easy and still isn't but I'm not a quitter. I'll read through the rest later. 1. I wasn't rich either. Still am not. Dad was a small-town cop, mom a small town nurse. I'm a firefighter, wife's a cop. Middle class guy here. 2. I, nor my family, ever took any hand-outs. 3. I had to work hard in school and college, as well. 4. I've never lived in the lap of luxury, then or now. 5. 'It' wasn't easy for me either, but I'm not a quitter, either. Gents, here's the thing. Being able to admit that a person has had advantages (in my case health, love, and a decent brain in my head) is NOT the same as saying that I had everything given to me. Nobody got me my first job, nobody handed me the title U.S. Marine, nobody got my degree for me, and nobody studied for any FD promotional testing except me. I don't feel the least bit guilty for what I've accomplished, but I'm also not going to pretend that I had to pull myself out of a gutter, clawing through handicaps and mental limitations, fighting against impossible odds. Because I didn't. That doesn't lessen my accomplishments. Stain, the guys you mentioned in your post, particularly Bernie, are example of EXTRAORDINARY people. By definition, most people are NOT extraordinary. My problem is penalizing people for not being extraordinary. Born in tough situations, mentally and physically limited? Can't be extraordinary and 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps'? Fuck you. You get to work 100 hours a week for $2 an hour for the rest of your life at menial jobs, with no hope for improving your lot in life. That's shitty, and doesn't have to be. |
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Post by NamelessStain on Jan 13, 2014 22:41:10 GMT
Stain, I'm sitting at home with nothing to do, so I'll address your 'raise the minimum wage and provide healthcare destroys the economy' example. Lucky you! The example you give is ridiculously, and I mean RIDICULOUSLY oversimplified. Among your presumptions... 1. Given an increase in wages, choices are limited to cutting personnel or raising prices. 2. Given provision of healthcare, choices are limited to cutting personnel or raising prices. 3. Increase in wages invariably results in an increase in inflation which negates the increase in wage. I'll start with point 1... Given an increase in wages, choices may include: 1. Simply accepting a reduction in profit by maintaining current levels of production, efficiency, and pricing.
Reduction in profit? So the person who is taking all the risk should just accept the loss? What about the people who currently are in massive debt or barely paying themselves a salary? So a small business owner making $30K a year (lets assume my previous fictional business) should instead have to eat $1K/week ($52K/year) a loss? That would put them $22K in debt/year.2. Increasing demand for your product, which results in an increase in production and profit. Advertising costs money (which your are losing fast), lunch specials for your burritos would make you lose money until the word gets spread (if it does, maybe your burritos suck )3. Diversifying production to include other items which will increase demand for your goods, and thus profit.
I assume your burrito business includes all mexican food. So let's make a fusion business... how about Mexican Italian? Oooo... Mexican German! There's a reason the most successful and higher end restaurants have limited menus, it requires a lower overhead for supplies required and the number of different supplies. Having a menu of 10 pages is actually BAD for business for profit making since supplies will go bad before all of it has been used.4. Increasing workforce and production efficiency to increase production which will increase profit. Efficiency, I'm all for that! Still need to find buyers for this increased production. Also, I assume your burrito makers aren't juggling the tortillas before rolling them 5. Find other ways to cut costs, including energy efficiency, renegotiation of loan terms or materials contracts, partnering with other businesses, etc. I would like to think businesses generally try to cut costs to be more successful already. Here's one I think would work, find a new supplier if you can. It's still going to be tough since an increase in minimum wage affects a majority of businesses and they are going through the same challenges as you would be.To be sure, each of the above points carry their own variables, and are also not simple. However, it took me about 30 seconds to come up with that list (and my undergraduate work was largely in chemistry, not economics). A small business owner would no doubt have many more tricks up their sleeves, so the assumption that their only two cards to play are 'go out of business' or 'fire people' doesn't give much credence to the creativity and independent entrepreneurial spirit you think every working man or woman possesses... I think the biggest factor in how a business owner deals with this change really depends on how much risk are they willing to take. If my business is doing well, I may take the loss and move forward with growing the business. If my business is barely surviving, I would probably want a less risky solution.As far as the healthcare issue, you're already paying for it homey, either directly or indirectly. The business owner can directly pay for it by providing a healthcare benefit, or indirectly pay for it (i.e., pass it off to society, of which they are a part), but paying for people to be on Medicaid / Medicare. The sole alternative to that involves the willingness to throw those who can't afford healthcare (and their kids) to the wolves. If you can't pay for it or get a loan for it you're not getting health care. I don't think we want folks dying of an infected tooth in the richest country in the world, but maybe that's a social price we're all willing to pay so we don't have to pay an extra 25 cents for a Big Mac. Time will tell If I pay $400/month for an employee health care or being taxed $100/month for not providing it, it's an easier decision. I really don't own a business, so I don't know the numbers. But there must be a reason why so many businesses are cutting employee hours so they don't have to provide the health care.The relation between wages and inflation? I can simplify that as well as you can, mister! I can make 200 burritos a an 8 hour day using two employees. I pay them $5 an hour, charge $4 per burrito. Wages = $80 per day (total) or 10% of my burrito sales price. If I increase my wages by 20% to $6 an hour, (total of $96 per day), and production remains the same, I increase the percentage of my burrito labor cost by only 2% to 12% of sales price. A 20% increase in wages = a 2% increase in product price. I now need to charge an extra 2 cents for my employee to buy my burrito, leaving them 98 extra cents for other things once you figure in burrito inflation. See how easy that is? What?!?! I'm oversimplifying an incredibly complex financial interplay in the larger U.S. and global economy?!!? The hell you say! The hell I say!!!!Want to oversimplify to the max? Try this on for size. There have been 29 hikes in the minimum wage since 1938. The U.S. GDP has increased from $1 trillion to $16 trillion in that same amount of time. Accordingly, for every increase in the minimum wage the U.S. GDP increases by a $15 trillion / 29. I mean, I'm not an economist, but I don't see how raising the minimum wage "hurts" the economy...I'd like to see those numbers of GDP increasing $15T during each minimum wage increase if you can provide them or a link please? Let's not forget, the US as a country has the highest level of personal debt per populace. So, how do we fix that too? People are living in debt, swimming in debt, many are dying and in debt which their families end up owing? I'm not even going to bring up govt debt from cities to federal debts. Detroit, it's just ugly with many other cities slowing following the death march. Well you're in luck, I've already starting have a beer after work! My comments are intermingled with your quote, but I used the uber GREEN color! Btw, awesome discussions DM! Let's keep our minds rolling! |
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Post by Browning35 on Jan 13, 2014 22:51:44 GMT
I've been following along here and there without much to add. I'm not all that well versed in economics to tell the truth. One thing I've been surprised that no one's mentioned so far is American companies shipping jobs overseas. From the 40's to the 80's there weren't as many people on welfare for a couple reasons. One was work ethic, two there were jobs out there that anyone could get with very little education. The guy or gal at the factory in manufacturing or answering phones might not have been setting the world on fire, but they could feed their family, have a decent standard of living and look at themselves in the mirror and know that they were doing okay. Now all those jobs are gone. So to a certain extent I get why some many people are on welfare now. It sucks out there. Until there are laws to stop that kind of thing IMO this is going to keep on spiraling out of control. To a certain extent it's still in their hands what they do with their life. People still made it to the top of the heap in the Soviet Union, but it was a pretty bleak place to live. - As far as healthcare goes personally I think that the government could come up with a barebones basic plan for people in need if we weren't sending billions of dollars out to countries like Pakistan, Peru and Liberia and eliminated wasteful government spending, but like I said...I'm not all that well versed in the economics of how it would be accomplished. www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htmJust seems like there's plenty of money out there from Americans being taxed that isn't being spent in the best interests of Americans. |
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Post by NamelessStain on Jan 13, 2014 23:11:51 GMT
Dannus scribed "Don't bitch about your life, change it..." Very easily said for you and I and GM."" Just as a point of order, I was never rich, raised by my mom, never took any hand outs, was on the honor roll/got honors just by hard work, and no one gave me a thing. I never lived in the lap of any luxury. So yea, social issues can be overcome. A few things I've always done or not done, don't drink a lot, never did drugs, didn't party my butt off, and never ran afoul of the law. So, no, in my case, it wasn't easy and still isn't but I'm not a quitter. I'll read through the rest later. 1. I wasn't rich either. Still am not. Dad was a small-town cop, mom a small town nurse. I'm a firefighter, wife's a cop. Middle class guy here. 2. I, nor my family, ever took any hand-outs. 3. I had to work hard in school and college, as well. 4. I've never lived in the lap of luxury, then or now. 5. 'It' wasn't easy for me either, but I'm not a quitter, either. Gents, here's the thing. Being able to admit that a person has had advantages (in my case health, love, and a decent brain in my head) is NOT the same as saying that I had everything given to me. Nobody got me my first job, nobody handed me the title U.S. Marine, nobody got my degree for me, and nobody studied for any FD promotional testing except me. I don't feel the least bit guilty for what I've accomplished, but I'm also not going to pretend that I had to pull myself out of a gutter, clawing through handicaps and mental limitations, fighting against impossible odds. Because I didn't. That doesn't lessen my accomplishments. Stain, the guys you mentioned in your post, particularly Bernie, are example of EXTRAORDINARY people. By definition, most people are NOT extraordinary. My problem is penalizing people for not being extraordinary. Born in tough situations, mentally and physically limited? Can't be extraordinary and 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps'? Fuck you. You get to work 100 hours a week for $2 an hour for the rest of your life at menial jobs, with no hope for improving your lot in life. That's shitty, and doesn't have to be. Yes, Bernie was simply a phenomenal person and I was truly blessed to have known him. I wish I would have stayed in contact better. Mr. Keith, I will never forget just sitting there drinking beer. I remember he was having a party in his room and I just came back from San Fran and brought some OE800 40s (since a few weeks ago he said he couldn't find any). I gave him the beer and he asked me to stop over. I was the only white person in that room. One guy said "What's he doing here?" Mr. Keith said "He brought the beer, do you want to drink or leave?" He was awesome. I understand not having all the "advantages" I did such as caring and motivational parents, a good home environment, and good role models. But it seems like all of us weren't "rich" growing up but where handed intangible qualities and morals. I can't impart morals or ethics onto others who grew up in negative environments. I wish I could, but not probable. Here's a thought, maybe a new version of public works would help? During the depression, great things happened from public works. Hover damn, the interstate system, building schools, reservoirs, etc etc. Maybe we need to use the large labor force for infrastructure? Thoughts? |
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Post by shiddymunkie on Jan 14, 2014 1:52:17 GMT
"An hourly rate of $29.13 equates to a weekly pay of $1,165, monthly pay of $5,049, and an annual salary of $60,590." www.calcxml.com/calculators/convert-hourly-to-salaryIt's pretty upsetting to see that there are actually welfare recipients in some states who are making more money than I do, and I work on the corporate side of a Fortune 200 company! Something is terribly wrong with this picture. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jan 14, 2014 12:27:08 GMT
Shiddy brings up a good point. It used to be that there really wasn't a choice. Work or dwell in dire poverty. Now, it's quite comfortable to be poor. No lack of food, technology or anything else really. Couple that with copious hand outs, where's the incentive?
Further, it creates an inverse reaction. Work is hard. It sucks. My biggest beef is I'm stuck for 8 hrs a day with some people who I'd never associate with given the opportunity. Now, in the case of NS, he was surrounded by folks who didn't take handouts. I was never around people who did and if they did, I wasn't around them for long.
If the road is paved so that you can easily chill out all day on the dime of someone else, why not? Personally I feel this is the issue. There isn't a personally drive to get up. I'm not extraordinary. I wasn't as smart as many people in school or college. I had to study for days while they partied. I had a family while I went through college which isn't easy. But like I stated previously, I don't quit. I don't know where I got that trait but it's there. It bothers me that people who recieve benefits from the work of others aren't particularly grateful people about it either.
Then on top of all this, this system is not economically feasible. It's under grinding debt and the roles are expanding. What's going to happen when the obligations can no longer can be met? Or there's a seriously slow down. Right now there are 100 million out of work. That's a serious issue. Now were stuck with a large segment conditioned to wait for the benefits of others work. What happens when I'm no longer able to support them? Let's say the economy seriously slows and kicks me down more than a few tax brackets and millions of my other working brotateos. Then the general pool that we've all been putting money into is empty, no one can put anymore in and by law we're no longer eligible to. Generally, this is where we are now.
I'm not claiming this is going to lead to massive chaos or anything goofy, just a general question. What happens when this runs out? Shanty towns? It seems this is setting a large segment up for failure.
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Post by NamelessStain on Jan 14, 2014 13:17:41 GMT
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Post by NamelessStain on Jan 14, 2014 16:45:09 GMT
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Post by shiddymunkie on Jan 15, 2014 5:42:54 GMT
... Now, it's quite comfortable to be poor. If I had to distill the problem down to a single sentence, that would be it. We've gotten to the point where there is little-to-no financial difference between working a minimum wage/entry-level job and being on welfare...and that is a huge problem. What incentive is there for people to "work their way up" if being unemployed pays just as much as starting at the bottom? Starting at the bottom isn't easy, it sucks...and knowing that you could make just as much playing video games, or watching TV, or surfing the web will be enough for people to say "the hell with this!" and settle for a life of welfare. |
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Post by dannusmaximus on Jan 15, 2014 15:02:36 GMT
... Now, it's quite comfortable to be poor. If I had to distill the problem down to a single sentence, that would be it. We've gotten to the point where there is little-to-no financial difference between working a minimum wage/entry-level job and being on welfare...and that is a huge problem. What incentive is there for people to "work their way up" if being unemployed pays just as much as starting at the bottom? Starting at the bottom isn't easy, it sucks...and knowing that you could make just as much playing video games, or watching TV, or surfing the web will be enough for people to say "the hell with this!" and settle for a life of welfare. Very well said, both of you. Honestly, at least around 'my people' who live in my FD response area, I don't think that it's really even a conscious choice between getting a low-wage job and staying on the dole. Being on the dole is very much the family business for these folks. It simply doesn't occur to them to go out and get a job. Seriously. Their parents didn't work. Their peers don't work. For one of these folks to wake up and say "You know, today I'm going to go out and look for work," would be as foreign as any of us on this board waking up and saying "You know, today I'm going to quit my job and sign up for welfare benefits, and that's how I'll live from now on..." Adding to that, enabling dirtbags (I make a personal distinction between people who could absolutely work if they wanted to and people with bona fide health or mental problems that preclude them from meaningful, self-supporting employment) is a major business for many players. There are attorneys around here who make a VERY good living successfully arguing disability cases for dirtbags. My wife recounts a car chase which turned into a person fleeing on foot. Said person ran for many blocks, vaulting over fences, dodging under clotheslines, cutting sharply down alleys and leaping wide ditches. The cops finally chased him down, cuffed him up, and he ended up in court. My wife was one of the arresting officers, so she was in court during the initial bail hearing and reading of formal charges. The judge asked where the person was employed. He stated he didn't work, he was on disability. The judge inquired about his disability. He said it was asthma and he had to use an inhaler. The judge stated that she too had asthma and needed an inhaler, but she wasn't on disability, and further inquired how he had managed to outrun (on foot) a contingent of very fit police officers for such a long distance if he had such a bad disability. He stared blankly. Would it fix that if we cut off benefits altogether, or radically reduced them so that you simply couldn't feed yourself without SOME source of outside income? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the folks who just lost benefits would riot and loot, and instead of paying them a monthly stipend to basically behave we would spend more money on LE and prisons. Without a doubt some people who were legitimately unable to find work (for whatever reason) would get caught in the backblast, and they and their kids would go hungry, without heat, without medical attention. Are we okay with that, as a society? |
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Post by NamelessStain on Jan 19, 2014 22:30:30 GMT
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