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Post by LowKey on Apr 24, 2015 6:43:38 GMT
The new(ish) Glock in .380 has me pondering something...
As more holes in the target are better than fewer holes; and as most defensive shoots occur at fairly close ranges (less finesse in aiming required).....
....wouldn't a full-auto* pistol in .380 be an excellent self defense gun?
I have to wonder what our defensive batteries would look like if artificial constraints had never been placed on what we are allowed to carry and use, which in turn may have discouraged firearms developers from exploring. Heck, imagine a .380 pistol witha giggle switch loaded with actual HE rounds......pretty sure that's a combo that would put down just about any threat.
What of good use, if anything, do you think we may have missed out on due to the aftificial and arbirtary restrictions placed on firearms?
*( or 3 rnd burst)
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Post by nxp on Apr 24, 2015 18:14:06 GMT
Not sure on the 380 as a platform for FA in a handgun - and here's my thought process on it:
1) the 380/9mmK (in an HG platform) has almost always been designed as a blowback action instead of a locked action because of the operating pressures. The Colt/Browning 1903 being a notable exception.
2) I find BB action FA's to be more difficult to control than a locked/delayed action FA - subtle for sure, but the two BB FA's I've fired just climbed wicked fast on me vs the roller lock I fired. The AR was a rifle so I can't really compare it vs a subgun.
3) Two manufactured FA pistols (the Beretta and the Glock) both suffer from the same issue of control - Glock had the optional stock and Beretta tried the front grip and a 3rd burst. Both proved to be a handful.
4) Micro Uzi. *insert gonk face*
Hopefully you can see some of my thought pattern on the topic. For sure it would get more rounds out of the gun, but the real question is would it get more rounds on target - and I just can't answer that. It smacks of the same round-about thought process of the 410 revolvers IMO, and the "less finesse in aiming required" accentuates it.
I think if anything, manufacturers have had to become MORE creative to fit into the constraints of the arbitrary restrictions such as non-military calibers, advancements in polymer designs, striker designs, etc. Look at all the goofiness that has come about to AR's just to fit with the knee jerk legislation. Designers will adapt, and they'll continue to create.
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Post by LowKey on Apr 24, 2015 18:59:40 GMT
Hopefully you can see some of my thought pattern on the topic. For sure it would get more rounds out of the gun, but the real question is would it get more rounds on target - and I just can't answer that. It smacks of the same round-about thought process of the 410 revolvers IMO, and the "less finesse in aiming required" accentuates it. Just to clarify, "less finesse in aiming required" doesn't translate as "Spray and Pray", just closer to "I can see meat in my sight picture, so I can fire. I don't care if it hits him on the 4th rib or the 5th". In short, nothing like the thought process of the Judge and it's ilk. IMHO, if you're taking enough time to pinpoint where your round is going to impact in a defensive shoot then you're going to end up full of holes while in possession of a full magazine. Make sure the bad guy is the only place the rounds are going to impact and start walking rounds onto vitals if need be.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Apr 24, 2015 19:18:00 GMT
What of good use, if anything, do you think we may have missed out on due to the aftificial and arbirtary restrictions placed on firearms? I personally feel I have plenty of options under existing artificial and arbitrary restrictions to effectively and efficiently address a dangerous threat. Instead of a full auto .380, maybe just carry a more effective caliber in the first place?
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Post by Browning35 on Apr 24, 2015 19:20:59 GMT
I thought about that sort of thing after reading the book Unintended Consequences. You know, if we had real freedom instead of a nanny state playing eternal parent and we could make our own choices about such things.
Full auto compact pistol would prolly be to much of a handful to control. I've often wondered about two-rd burst (basically a double-tap) run at a high cyclic rate.
Like the explosive rds, that's a nice touch.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Apr 24, 2015 20:06:30 GMT
Would HE rounds be viable out of a weapon intended for up close and personal defense? Don't explosive rounds generally have a fusing mechanism to prevent them from going off too close to the shooter? A .380 wouldn't carry much RDX/PETN or whatever, but for a pistol intended to be used between point blank range and 5 yards or so, I could see unintended consequences. If the danger close for such a bullet is 25 feet, it would be a moot point - - I don't know anybody who would advocate spraying .380 explosive bullets at a person who is 30 ft away, and closer than that means you don't get the benefits of the HE.
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Post by Browning35 on Apr 24, 2015 20:35:55 GMT
On bullets like the B-Patrone 8mil Mauser and the Soviet-Bloc copies of that bullet in 54R I think it got a ways in then did its damage. That was with a larger charge than what you have in a 95 gr .380 ACP bullet too.
Would depend on the explosive and I'm not really up on that sort of thing. Don't really know what's out there for that application besides what's in those 55 to 70 year old munitions.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Apr 24, 2015 23:45:56 GMT
I really think the prohibition on silencers and MGs is destroying most effective and practical designs. Gemtech and B&T both have mini suppressors for the Glock 42 that make it about the same length as a full sized. I think that would be absolutely a great carry gun with a very low report. I think something similar could be worked on with the integrally suppressed Russian weapons and make them for the civilian market. Fixed barrel 9mm is possible with in shrouded barrel suppressed gun. However, with the current climate who's going to carry a NFA item? Or how about a slide that is baffled on a semi auto with a ported barrel making about 1.5" thick? Berettas are 1.5" thick. There are endless possibilities.
Likewise, what about integrally suppressed hunting rifles? IMO the prinicle of home defense is a suppressed rifle. How about something on the line of the MP5k for $1200? Or honeybadgers for $900? I'm talking full auto.
So yes, current laws are stiffing the best tools for the job.
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Post by nxp on Apr 25, 2015 14:22:36 GMT
An integrally suppressed 9mm pistol that's roughly full sized and Beretta/chubby Sig thick?
Yes please!
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 1, 2015 0:36:55 GMT
Looks mildly effective.
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Post by nxp on May 1, 2015 2:18:36 GMT
Do want very very bad.
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Post by misterdark on May 1, 2015 3:49:19 GMT
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 1, 2015 10:07:35 GMT
Dat second auto burst, Jesus, about a 5" group at 5m. Wow. Might leave a mild abrasion and/or swelling at the injection site.
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Post by LowKey on May 1, 2015 11:35:16 GMT
Dat second auto burst, Jesus, about a 5" group at 5m. Wow. Might leave a mild abrasion and/or swelling at the injection site. See, that's what I suspected. That's in the ballpark for average range in a defensive shoot with a handgun. I'm thinking if you put that burst in your assailant the attack would probably be over right then and there. The tissue damage from concentrated fire on that one small area.....
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 1, 2015 11:47:09 GMT
I agree, while Ziga' is a very good shooter that was his first rodeo with that pistol and only his second group. It was a full mag dump too, I bet with more training and a shorter burst it would be a bit tighter. I like that it's got a selector as well instead of being just full auto all the time.
I'd like to see some sort of ergonomic stock that that could be attached as well.
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