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Post by scbrian on Dec 3, 2014 3:43:36 GMT
www.live5news.com/story/27530904/tri-county-law-enforcement-equipped-with-war-weapons-other-military-equipmentBERKELEY COUNTY, SC (WCSC) - Semi-automatic guns. Helicopters. Armored Vehicles. It's the kind of equipment native to U.S. military forces, but all are becoming increasing popular among local law enforcement agencies as well <snip> while the Charleston County Sheriff's office has amassed 89 patrol rifles, four helicopters, and an M-60 light machine gun. <snip> Now, I'm all for the PD's being able to arm themselves, but I have trouble thinking of ANY reason a local PD, even county or state, should have an M60... Thoughts?
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 3, 2014 4:51:30 GMT
SLA Los Angeles type firefight against well armed terrorists or gang members all in one location, but where there wasn't the presence of any hostages to prevent them from hosing the building down?
I dunno, only type of scenario that I can think of.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 4, 2014 12:36:14 GMT
Richland Co. has a M113 and a M2 .50 cal. I can see the M113 but the fifty? Can't see any application for that. Nor any other belt fed, really, no law enforcement purpose. Sure, a 50 cal semi auto for defeating barricades but that's so damn rare.
Cutting lose with a M60 is a neighborhood or any populated area would be bad. I can see semi auto precision rifles but anything full auto is going to have a very limit use if one at all. Armored cars to me have very definite purposes; cover, getting downed officers, breaching, etc.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Dec 4, 2014 14:44:01 GMT
Patrols rifles / AR style rifles are the new shotgun as far as domestic LE. The public is going to have to get over being scared when they see cops with AR's - - it is the de facto longarm of choice for everybody in this nation, LE or ordinary citizen.
I can't think of any reason for LE to own ANY automatic weapons, to be honest, much less a belt-fed one. Armored cars? Meh. I can see a theoretical reason for major urban departments to have them, but IMO not every podunk town needs an amtrac. Just my opinion.
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Post by red on Dec 4, 2014 23:53:45 GMT
I only know of one time a M60 may have been a better idea for a LE. I know y'all remember that big bank robbery in Cali where the robbers had full auto AK's and heavy body armor. Cops went to a gun store to buy some high power hunting rifles. The armored cars i can see for a swat team or in some big city to run. A .50BMG bolt rifle i saw used on TV (i think the show was Dallas Swat) to shoot the engine block of a Mack truck . The truck was high jacked and the driver was held hostage while the did a road rage drive to the boarder.
Now a AR 15 carbine and a 9 to 45 on there hip i would say should be standard issue for most LE.
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Post by scbrian on Dec 5, 2014 1:13:16 GMT
Oh, I'm in agreement - patrol rifles/Ar's/sniper rifles, etc. I just cant even figure out a (realistic) situation when an M60 should be deployed in con us.. o.0
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Post by nxp on Dec 5, 2014 1:13:53 GMT
I see no reason at all for ANY PD to have belt fed funtime. I question the need for fully automatic firearms, as I firmly believe that proper training with a semi-auto rifle would offer more advantage over a spray and pray situation.
I can see the need for armored vehicles for the reasons GBM stated, but I don't think every township needs an MRAP. I know there a township up here that's got a ridiculous amount of surplus, to include an APC (why the hell would a township of a couple thousand need an APC?!) and when questioned on as to why from the local Fox station, the answer given was basically "Because we can. Muh Homeland Security." I'm sorry, but there's no chance in hell that Haji wants anything to do with little northern trailer park WI where I'd question whether or not the last census pamphlet had to fill out other than one "ethnic" bubble.
We need less Stormtrooper and more Sheriff Andy's, IMO. But to be fair, I also think we need more prisons where hard time is exactly that. There's plenty of ditches that need to be dug, graveled and cleaned through out this great country.
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Post by scbrian on Dec 5, 2014 1:18:21 GMT
I cant 'like' your post enough...
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Post by LowKey on Dec 7, 2014 11:05:47 GMT
I see no reason at all for ANY PD to have belt fed funtime. I question the need for fully automatic firearms, as I firmly believe that proper training with a semi-auto rifle would offer more advantage over a spray and pray situation. I can see the need for armored vehicles for the reasons GBM stated, but I don't think every township needs an MRAP. I know there a township up here that's got a ridiculous amount of surplus, to include an APC (why the hell would a township of a couple thousand need an APC?!) and when questioned on as to why from the local Fox station, the answer given was basically "Because we can. Muh Homeland Security." I'm sorry, but there's no chance in hell that Haji wants anything to do with little northern trailer park WI where I'd question whether or not the last census pamphlet had to fill out other than one "ethnic" bubble. We need less Stormtrooper and more Sheriff Andy's, IMO. But to be fair, I also think we need more prisons where hard time is exactly that. There's plenty of ditches that need to be dug, graveled and cleaned through out this great country. Well, if they know the trick of flipping every third center guide in the track, a M113 or other tracked vehicle can be fantastic if you need to drive out and extract folks if the roads are solid sheets of ice.. Of course you can do that with a dozer as well, but an M113 has space for passengers. I'm not really for PD having armored vehicles, maybe one or two for really large metro areas at a maximum but those should never have any belt fed weapons. Side note on an M113: If folks in your area own a .50BMG rifle I wouldn't feel too comfy riding in an M113. |
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Post by redeyes on Dec 7, 2014 13:45:25 GMT
I wouldn't care if they had belt feds If I could own them for a reasonable price and they were less restricted. Honestly, I don't care too much now as long as the weapon is gathering dust in the gun locker with instructions not to use it except for Red Dawn or Mumbai type situations. My main worry is a no knock raid that got bad info or the wrong address. I do agree that police don't need to be rolling in armored vehicles with mounted weapons. I could see mounting less than lethal or something, but not 40mm or machine guns.
ETA On second thought, scratch Mumbai, Red Dawn only.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Dec 7, 2014 14:57:55 GMT
Side note on an M113: If folks in your area own a .50BMG rifle I wouldn't feel too comfy riding in an M113. Yeah, we had a few M113 targets on our range. The front is ok but sides are goofy. Which prolly part of the reason people rode on top. New up-armored ones are OK from what I hear. |
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Post by nxp on Dec 7, 2014 16:11:17 GMT
Well, if they know the trick of flipping every third center guide in the track, a M113 or other tracked vehicle can be fantastic if you need to drive out and extract folks if the roads are solid sheets of ice.. Of course you can do that with a dozer as well, but an M113 has space for passengers. I'm not really for PD having armored vehicles, maybe one or two for really large metro areas at a maximum but those should never have any belt fed weapons. Side note on an M113: If folks in your area own a .50BMG rifle I wouldn't feel too comfy riding in an M113. I'd bet money they don't know that trick - I think it was originally procured with the thought that it could be used for "rescue" on some of the snowmobile trail sets we have through out that area, but there's some significant holes in that concept - 1) Access is available EVERYWHERE in terms of trailheads, and at most the sections are under a few miles. 2) Trails are groomed well - read, 4x4 wheeled vehicles can get there. There's also reasonable access to airlift due to farm fields. 3) The APC is owned by the township (local) not the sherriff or DNR, both responsible for the trail systems. 4) We have plenty - PLENTY - of nasty guard  depots around where we can get a tracked vehicle if we need it for some reason.... And while we DO get a fair amount of ice up here, I think last year was the first time we'd actually have enough ice on the lakes to support an APC for trans - min I think is like 25" for 1-2mph if memory serves, but we had over 32" last season.... I honestly can't think of a reason where a small township needs a tracked vehicle. Who's gonna keep the maintenance up on it? The fire dept's volunteer for cripes sake... Why not take that money and work on getting a better fire station? Or a hele pad that's not a parking lot? Or put it into some of the sketchy roads/signage? A Plow truck that wasn't new in 1950 with a new/repaired salt box and hydraulics? Infrastructure? AFA the 50, I know of a few folks that have them around here. Local fun shop sells two different models, bolt or semi, both from Barrett. I can get ammo (locally) all day long for them.... |
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Post by scbrian on Dec 14, 2014 23:37:26 GMT
So... Went to a Christmas party last night given by a cop buddy of mine, he had a large number of other cops there some from the department in question. I asked him again over a beer "how come" and he tossed one of his friends under the bus. "He's swat, you should ask him"... after a bit of a rambling discussion (We'd both been drinking) mentioning the Port, and the bases and "We do have scenarios where we use it" (Apparently he just cant tell me). it seemed to come down to "Why shouldn't the PD have a "one up" in escalation of force" and "Because we can". Few things I didn't know is that they have come under fire before in the response vehicle (A bearcat), only 2 of the helo's are functional, the other 2 are for parts, etc...
Wifey who was sitting on the sidelines suggests I not drive though the county for a bit as my questions seemed to hit a nerve.
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Post by nxp on Dec 15, 2014 2:34:42 GMT
So... Went to a Christmas party last night given by a cop buddy of mine, he had a large number of other cops there some from the department in question. I asked him again over a beer "how come" and he tossed one of his friends under the bus. "He's swat, you should ask him"... after a bit of a rambling discussion (We'd both been drinking) mentioning the Port, and the bases and "We do have scenarios where we use it" (Apparently he just cant tell me). it seemed to come down to "Why shouldn't the PD have a "one up" in escalation of force" and "Because we can". Few things I didn't know is that they have come under fire before in the response vehicle (A bearcat), only 2 of the helo's are functional, the other 2 are for parts, etc... Wifey who was sitting on the sidelines suggests I not drive though the county for a bit as my questions seemed to hit a nerve. - Weasel speak. Get the toy now and figure out where we can use it later. Anyone can sit around and generate fiction that has supposed merit to procure one of these things, hell - get GBM to cut a chapter of Meatworld and slide it into a damage plan folder. Scenario? Check! It seemed to come down to "Why shouldn't the PD have a "one up" in escalation of force" and "Because we can". This is the shit right here that drives me up the wall and bothers me no end. If you need a one-up for force escalation, you're doing it wrong. I can armchair this one all day long, but bringing beltfed fun time to the party is not going to be an almighty trump card in "insert your doomsday scenario here". I would challenge that the first time that M60 saw the light of day and was used, it would be the LAST time it would be seen in the dept hands. Media would eat that shit up, and there would be some serious fall out from using a belt fed gun out in Johnny Public's yard. Now the helos? Sure. Those things are expensive for any dept to have, much less spares for parts. You can use them for so much more than putting lots of holes into something quickly. AFA the Bearcat coming under fire, it would have to be a heck of round (50BMG) to get into one. Small arms fire isn't going to do it, and even a high powered magnum rifle would have issues. The vehicle is made to be shot at - that why it's armored. You all have a lot of 50BMG's running loose down there? |
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depots around where we can get a tracked vehicle if we need it for some reason....