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Post by Browning35 on Sept 6, 2014 22:34:50 GMT
Two Walmart loss prevention guys on Canada try to subdue a shoplofter and the whole thing goes south. Guy goes digging into his pocket and guess what comes out? www.liveleak.com/view?i=d87_1409517441 |
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Post by homerj on Sept 7, 2014 7:08:21 GMT
Holy shit  that could have been way worse. |
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Post by LowKey on Sept 7, 2014 11:03:59 GMT
Had to watch the video sans sound, so I'm sure I'm probably missing details, take the following with a huge grain of salt.
Just curious, but is it even legal for the loss prevention guys to use force on a shoplifter? I'm not crying "foul" against them, just thinking of liability issues.
IIRC, loss prevention is essentially private security, not a sworn LE officer, and while I'm sure they have the same rights as Joe Public regarding self defense I'm not sure about the level of force they're legally allowed to use, particularly depending on the level of "reasonable suspicion" they have to accuse the cretin of shoplifting. For example, actual eyeball view/ video surveillance of cretin putting store property in pocket would be different from "cretin acting hinky" walking out of the store, wouldn't it?
Just trying to look at this from another point of view; Sumdood walking out of WallyWorld gets nervous 'cause two mall-ninja types are eyeballing and following him, then jump him and start beating the crap out of him claiming to be security while holding his arms and punching him in the head repeatedly.
Again, not defending the cretin shoplifter, just looking at the levels of fail on the part of the loss prevention guys who almost got shanked over (what could have been) a package of haines boxer briefs.
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Post by Browning35 on Sept 7, 2014 13:07:10 GMT
Yeah, they were both lucky that... A: He couldn't get the blade out all the way. Instead of one of the push forward and it automatically locks type with your thumb it was one of those Stanley box cutters that requires you to twist, move the blade forward and twist again to secure it. B : He wasn't very good with it. Supposed to keep the blade constantly cutting and explode into a flurry of sticks/slashes and get them the fuck off you. That was two attemps (although the first one would have been decent if he could have gotten the blade out), hardly a flurry or an explosion. - LowKeyYeah, had those same thoughts myself. I go to Walmart all the time with my son. Say because of my tats or something two loss prevention guys thought I was acting hinky and followed me out to the parking lot and demand that I submit to handcuffing and a return to the store. Screw that. I don't know who these guys are. No uniforms or anything. Depending on how they handled it (say they handled it very poorly and I didn't believe they were who they said they were) there's a good chance that they're getting shot, stuck or pepper sprayed if they continued to push it and then hit me. If it was uniformed security with something saying that they're from Walmart it might be different if they just wanted to walk me back into the store with my son to await the arrival of the cops without cuffs. I won't be getting handcuffed by two randoms in street clothes though. I don't know who they are or where they'll take me after I'm restrained. In fact I'm not getting handcuffed by anyone other than a cop. I don't know, just saying it could have gone a lot worse. They really should have uniformed security if they're going to do it that way. I don't shoplift though, so I doubt I'll be in that situation, but they might think I look like someone who shoplifts though. |
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Post by nxp on Sept 7, 2014 16:00:45 GMT
Wow that could have gotten messy in a hurry. Two dudes are lucky he didn't know how to use that boxcutter effectively, had that been a 3" assisted opening or a fixed blade that could have ended poorly all the way around.
As a former Happymart front end manager, I can tell you that loss prevention doesn't have the right to physically restrain anyone. It's their own mess so to speak - they should (if suspecting someone and have proof - which isn't as hard as you think, the cameras in Happymart actually do work) police are to be called immediately, and the suspect followed. They can ask (nicely or otherwise) for you to stay, but AFAIK they can't use force to detain you. I want to say I recall something about a loss prevention being sued for unnecessary force in a case, but it wasn't Happymart. It was somewhere else, similar circumstances though...
What the video doesn't show, and what I wish it did - was the moment of contact. That sets the whole tone for the encounter, and if dude was out at his car or leaving for this car and civy sporting Jon/Ponch show up and demand compliance with hands on, then yes - this is going to get ugly quick. They should have stopped him immediately at the doorway before he left the building. They've got support there, they've got access to quiet areas, etc.
Poor planning and procedure make for poor results. IMO.
Obviously I have no idea of the specific laws that run around Canadia, and I live in RuralBumpkin, Midwest. If you lived in Urbanwarfare, Megacity your PO's response time and availability for shoplifting calls may be very different.
NXP
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Sept 7, 2014 16:11:11 GMT
Wow, poor tactics, got way too close and were way too lucky. Box cutters are shit for defensive use, it broke on the first kidney shot.
Both of them should have gone for hand control first and then immediate take down. Pushing someone on their feet against a car is pointless, once they got him to the ground the fight was over. No one can get two people off them. The lose prevention guys wanted to punch him, wrong move, take down, control the hands and then cuff.
Silly.
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Post by LowKey on Sept 7, 2014 17:04:33 GMT
From a fighting point of view, my old-ish fat-ish ass would have hurt both of them. Quite probably killed them with the crappy little box cutter if I'd felt it warranted (say I perceived them as thugs intent on doing serious injury).
Not because I'm a bad ass (I'm not. Period.) but because I have better than a grade school understanding of anatomy, have survived more than a few "fist fights" and have noticed that when you start to carve slices off them like a Thanksgiving turkey the average human being does their level best to get the hell away from you.
Close in like that, had the box cutter opened properly there would have been open abdominal cavities and severed tendons all around. "Jewels" on the ground as well.
All of this is why my opinion on dealing with knives echoes the advice once uttered by an old school Italian Mobster from NYC, "Run from a knife, rush a gun".
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Post by Browning35 on Sept 8, 2014 13:54:35 GMT
Wow, poor tactics, got way too close and were way too lucky. Box cutters are shit for defensive use, it broke on the first kidney shot. You think it broke on the first shot? I was thinking he couldn't deploy it properly cause he was using only one hand. If it broke off from sticking wouldn't that one shot still have dug in and caused some bleeding (even minimal)? When the guy raised up his shirt I didn't see any blood. Only reason for thinking he couldn't deploy it besides no blade being visible when the bystander/dude with the camera picked it up between the cars. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Sept 8, 2014 14:25:46 GMT
I'm not sure, I've broken the crap out of those things. I thought I saw him get it out then he did the classic waist hug kidney shot. I thought I saw it push back in. Crap defensive weapon. I didn't see any bleeding at all, may a scratch. Either way, it didn't work out because he took a digger on pavement with two dudes on his back.
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Post by Browning35 on Sept 8, 2014 15:34:00 GMT
All of this is why my opinion on dealing with knives echoes the advice once uttered by an old school Italian Mobster from NYC, "Run from a knife, rush a gun". That's pretty good advice most of the time. I'm not sure, I've broken the crap out of those things. I thought I saw him get it out then he did the classic waist hug kidney shot. I thought I saw it push back in. Crap defensive weapon. I didn't see any bleeding at all, may a scratch. Either way, it didn't work out because he took a digger on pavement with two dudes on his back. Those Stanley ones sure are. Thin, hard to deploy, hard to lock...whole bit The safety ones with the thumb and the thicker triangular blade that locks are a different story. Seen those do some damage. I still have a scar from one of those on my right palm, that shit friggin hurt. |
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Post by as556 on Jan 10, 2015 18:09:52 GMT
Im a current manager at failmart and AP cant do shit. You can pretty much flip them the bird and walk out, honestly. Our store gets absolutely raped on theft year after year by people who have figured this out. AP or salaried mgmt needs to see you conceal an item then at that point they can never, not even for a second lose sight of you for the "bust" to be legitimate. Ill echo Lowkey and Browning here, I'm no badass but if two dudes who arent sworn police begin to assault me shit is going to get ugly for them real quick. Disparity of force doesnt fly with me.
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that could have been way worse. 
