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Post by homerj on May 21, 2014 6:05:10 GMT
What are everyone's thoughts on open carry?
I know TX and SC don't allow for open carry of modern pistols and states like these have organizations promoting open carry of rifles to help warm citizens up to the idea of open carry of pistols. A few weeks ago a buddy of mine that I shoot with invited me to an open carry rally to promote open carry in Texas under the umbrella of Come and Take it Texas (CATI-Texas) and Open Carry Texas (OCT). The first one we had about 20 people and we had allot of honks and thumbs up and a few WTF faces on people in their cars passing by, the second one last weekend was at a different location with 27 people again mostly support and only counted three thumbs downs or being flipped the bird. Both times cops would shadow us and eventually talk to us and were totally cool and professional on both occasions just wanting to make a presence and keep people from flipping out more than anything I think.
I am all for open carry but I am starting to have an issue with the direction of the OCT group here in Texas, there are different chapters in different cities, mine is pretty chill and content with just keeping to to along the roads in heavy traffic areas with staying put at a few static locations along the way or being in a parking lot of a pro gun business where we have booths and stuff. Other chapters are pushing the limits, recently after a rally they decided to open carry in a Chipotle and put themselves and the group in a situation where customers and the company were uncomfortable with it, some jackasses were posing at the low and ready in the restaurant and these pictures are making their way around the anti gun groups and they are having a field day with it.
The group is bitterly divided in the FB posts on the main page with some people planning to retaliate against Chipotle and open carry outside their property and others (myself included) urging the group to respect individual/business property rights per the law and don't try to shove your beliefs down peoples throats and that we need to make a good first impression and expose Texans to open carry gradually so someday open carry of modern pistols can be a reality.
I am kind of torn right now, reading some of the jackassery makes me think that some of these people shouldn't open carry a piece of string much less a pistol, I have my CWP (AZ) on its way and I am considering just stopping my involvement before something really stupid happens or if the jackasses will prevail and end up doing more harm than good and just alienate Texans to the idea of open carry.
Most of you guys carry concealed, personally I think concealed carry is the best way to carry a weapon so really whats the point to open carry? Especially if the CCW process is something that can help weed out the crazies and discourage those who feel they don't need any training or validation to carry.
For the first time I caught myself thinking on the opposite side of a 2A issue which surprised me and kinda disappointed me, yet on the other hand I am not even sure how much open carry is utilized in open carry states. New Mexico is an open carry state and I have never seen anyone open carry a pistol there and never seen a rifle open carried in Texas until the first rally. Is this really a non issue? I am having a hard time even coming up with reasons why I would wan't to open carry a pistol, especially if I have a CCW. I mean being a sheepdog disguised as a sheep offers a definite advantage of surprise, you avoid the hassles and drama of people knowing you are carrying, and unless a place of business has policies or your state has laws that say otherwise, you can have free access to more places than you would open carrying.
I need a sanity check on this one, would appreciate what you guys think and what experiences you guys have had with any open carry groups.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 21, 2014 10:39:20 GMT
I have zero issue with open carry and believe it should be lawful as well as permitless concealed carry. That stated I believe the open carry advocates are going about it the wrong way. If you belive in freedom than you have to respect a business's right not to be involved. Starbucks and Chipolte didn't ask to participate. I belive all these demostrations should be on neutral ground.
I believe that once you involve others against their will then you become just like the people against it, we have to respect the liberty of everyone at all times and with regards to all aspects of it including economic liberty and property rights. Chipotle has a right to operate their business as they see fit without any molestation from an outside group making any statement.
I've never believe that is a productive way to get the message out. In informal interviews the vast majority are either neutral or don't like it. People just want a burrito and burrito covers, not a poltical statement. Appearing unreasonable
and inflexible while carrying a rifle generally doesn't work well with 'Mericans.
All that out there, the people that we should have discussions with is the legislature. Rap battles with Moms Against Fundamental Rights are just that. The more we entertain their BS the less we are working towards our goals. IF you spend 2 hours argueing with the Moms on FB then that is 2 hours not spend wordsmithing a letter to a senator with the power to change the law.
I think a better use of the time would be to clean up highways, food drives, etc and then just have a well made professional sign that say "Please Support Open Carry Law! It's the consititutional thing to do!" or something along those lines.
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Post by NamelessStain on May 21, 2014 15:00:26 GMT
There are quite a lot of headaches for the people in PA with open carry. Constantly being stopped by officers and in one case the guy took the officer to court and now all officers in that county have to be briefed daily that open carry is legal. It's a damn mess.
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Post by Browning35 on May 22, 2014 1:17:59 GMT
I used to open carry in AZ. Not as big a deal there and the cops were cool about it.
Sometimes a few morons can be their own worst enemy. Doesn't mean the cause isn't just, it just means that the motivation isn't pure for those particular people who want to engage in asshattery to prove some kind of a point. Mostly it's because they feel a little more powerful in a group.
If you feel strongly about it then continue. If you don't like the direction the group is going then try to steer it a different direction and try to tactfully call out the individual asshats for their behavior. Or if you're just lukewarm to the whole idea and it's not that big of a deal then bow out.
I feel it should be legal, but I'm generally not the type to go to rally's. I do sign petitions and write letters though.
At any rate I don't think you're anti-2A for being irked at this shit, just anti-bully and these few bullies trying to force their beliefs on others happen to be part of a larger movement. Not really the same thing.
I'm pretty pro-gun and I don't really want a bunch of dudes posing for pics with loaded guns next to where I'm trying to eat with my family IN a fucking restaurant.
Common sense, there's a time and a place for things and that ain't it. Open carry doesn't mean 'Pull out your loaded gun to show what a tough guy you are anywhere and everywhere and then whine like a bitch and throw an online temper tantrum when the restaurant asks you to leave'.
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Post by homerj on May 22, 2014 5:12:32 GMT
After talking it over with my buddy we aren't going to participate or remain affiliated with this group anymore. Anytime anyone starts censoring, even within your own group that troubles me. All dissent is being squashed, any negative publicity or memes about the Chipotle or Jack in the Box incidents with this group are being deleted and anyone with a calmer head calling for people to chill and rethink the approach are being labeled traitors, spineless wusses, liberals, and something called a butter (I have no idea what this means). Here is an article with the picture so you guys can judge for yourselves. personalliberty.com/open-carry-advocates-helping-kill-2nd-amendment/I wish I had copied the link to another pro 2A page that was pissed at this, I am talking about almost 1K comments, mostly negative about everything from the sloppy appearance of these two guys to why the hell you would feel the need to pose at the low ready for a picture in a restaurant and why anyone would think this would be a good idea to get the public to support you. I was constantly waiting for some kind of leadership to direct the passions and energies of the group into more productive efforts but nobody has come out trying to calm everybody down or to speak out against the retaliation in your face mindset. That in itself came off to me as implicit endorsement of that mentality but when dissenting posts started coming down that made it clear. The founder is a guy named C.J. Grisham, you may remember him as that Army MSG out of Ft. Hood that was arrested while hiking with his son and open carrying an AR. I sympathized with the guy now but the more I read about the man the more he sounds like an instigator and many point to that incident as an instigation to push the issue. After that he was arrested while open carrying on Texas State Capitol grounds while given a speech while repeatedly ignoring DPS warning that he is not allowed to carry a firearm within the capitol grounds. He has also shown a disregard for UCMJ attending an open carry rally while in uniform and running for office while still serving. The man comes across to me as a jackass and is all about disregarding multiple laws (civilian and military) and retaliation. If he is leading this group the group will likely follow his lead in this and I don't want to be associated with this group if (when) they end up doing something really stupid. www.michaelyon-online.com/storm-warning-the-trial-and-conviction-of-cj-grisham.htm End rant. There is another group Come and Take it Texas that is way more professional and chill that I wouldn't mind attending one of their rallies. But for now I think CWP is fine for me. Greg you are right about engaging the state legislature, there is never any effort to lobby our reps that I have seen. All these guys are accomplishing is feeding the the dying anti gun groups and alienating moderate Texans. The local chapter is considering some clean up and charity work but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Nameless, I hear you even in Texas I don't think the hassle would be worth it. Browning I wish TX was as open to OC as AZ, if I ever get stationed there it would be nice to try open carry without worrying too much. I wish I could help steer the direction but the guy in charge and the most vocal members are clearly at the helm steering the ship into a reef. Thanks for the feedback guys, I was worried I was overreacting and reading this wrong. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 22, 2014 11:54:16 GMT
I don't think you're over reacting. You can't try to change something without recognizing how you appear to the "audience". If you go out with bull horns, mohawks and getting in peoples faces then you appear looney. If you do charity work, have a clear message without insults and dress nicely without camo then you appear as someone interested in restoring rights.
Some people find issues that are controversial and only engage in these issues because there is controversy. I would guess that if open carry were lawful then this guy would go find something else to rant and rave about and never open carry. I think it's the "I have a cause and purpose" effect. I know this is the case with you, you're intested in gun rights, I think the "leader" here is interested in controversy. That will never work and the more it fails, the more outlandish his efforts will be.
These are laws that have stood on the books for decades. They're not going to be over turned any time soon or quickly. Really, it's not about changing the laws, it's about changing the attitudes of the voters. If we appear reasonable, in compliance with the existing laws, have a clear NON-moonbat message and approach I believe in a short period of time those attitudes will change.
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Post by Browning35 on May 22, 2014 12:29:36 GMT
I looked it up, a 'But'er' is someone like me.
It comes from when I say things like...
'I support the Second Amendment and the Constitution, I carry everyday, I belong to two gun rights organizations and all my free time is spent shooting or hunting, 'BUT' I think guys like the two posing in Chipolte with loaded guns alienate moderates and conservatives alike, they look like a fatass standing next to an inbred and I don't feel like having my family or myself flagged because they want to make some sort of statement in a State that's already pretty good.'
Having a rally outdoors, slinging a rifle over their back as a prop and passing out fliers and trying to get people to honk is one thing. Waving around guns in a restaurant is another.
Personally I don't feel like laws will get changed as a result of that activity and it isn't something I'd do, but to each his own.
It's like the switchblade knife prohibition laws that just went bye-bye in Texas. That change wasn't brought about as a result of people taking to the streets and waving knives in the face of others to acclimatize others to the sight of knives. It was brought about by signatures, letters, petitions, lobbying and getting elected representatives to sponsor the thing. End result : law got changed.
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Post by homerj on May 26, 2014 5:37:16 GMT
The scary part is that it doesn't seem like most of the members even comprehend these points. A statement urging chapters to not open carry in restaurants or places of business barely came out, but I am pretty sure nothing would have been said if the backlash wasn't so hard to ignore.
Ah ok..thats kinda clever. The whole legislative aspect of the issues seems to be pretty well ignored also there is little to no talk of lobbying our reps, awareness will only get them so far.
I am ordering a knife from James Helm (stormcrow/helm forge blades from ZS forums) and he was telling me there is an org that is the NRA of the knife world called kniferights.org that was instrumental in getting the switchblade laws overturned in Texas. Now they are working on that ridiculous ban on knives over 5.5", I swear it boggles my mind that there is no limit on length in comifornia but in Texas we do. I paid for a membership and James has a nice Benghazi Warfighter up for raffle on their site as well you guys should check it out.
Can't wait to get that knife in, I have been lusing for a helm forge blade for a loong time now.
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Post by Browning35 on May 26, 2014 13:29:28 GMT
Yeah, I've checked them out before and Open Carry TX does seem to ignore the legislative part of it.
'Umm...guys, that's pretty much an integral part of getting laws changed'
KnifeRights is an organization I've always meant to join and that I respect, but never got around to. They pretty much have the whole activist part of it down pretty well and would be a good act for Open Carry TX to follow, but probably won't.
His knives are nice, didn't know how much they were though.
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Post by homerj on May 27, 2014 5:51:47 GMT
He prices them by length, handle material, and sheath but in general you are looking at around the $200 range. He is coming out with a line of stock removal blades that should be cheaper but would have that rough hammer forged primal look he does so well.
He still hasn't posted what the finish on that line will be but I am thinking he will be duracoating them like he is doing to his hawks.
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Post by nxp on Jun 4, 2014 2:45:05 GMT
It's constitutionally allowed in our state, but you will get unnecessary attention for it if in any kind of large city. Rural folks don't give a crap, but all the bunny huggers and "Prevent Columbine/Sandyhook/Gabby's Tragedy" in major towns will call party foul immediately if you're spotted in town. Law enforcement has always been respectful and understanding, though my limited engagement with them has been with the county sheriff or the DNR. That said, I'd never go into MKE or Madistan with one in the open unless you want a LOT of unnecessary detain and general rights stomping.
We've got a few "open carry groups" up here that love to wander around public markets with AR's and combat shotguns, drop leg kit akimbo if available dressed in your favorite dark color with random political shirts toss in for good measure. Not really my idea of public awareness, and I'm still trying to figure out how it's "helping" the cause. All it does is ruffle feathers and get the local boys all wound up. Same folks really don't care if rifles are around come deer season, though, so really it's more about the way the message is being presented than the message itself.
I carry IWB 90% of the time, and the very few times I carry OWB it's with a shirt over it. I could honestly care less about printing, so if it pokes out when I bend over to pick something up, or flashes when I twist with the kids I'm not worried about it. That said, I'm not going to advertise it "openly" either.
Anyone who want's to carry openly is fine by me - makes all the eyes look at them first instead of me.
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Post by homerj on Jun 5, 2014 3:31:03 GMT
I'm surprised to hear of other groups doing the same damage, I thought this was a local phenomena. I don't know if you all read the Fox News/NRA ILA denouncement of these tactics. I don't see this groups posts anymore but I bet they are pissed, hopefully members with any sense will start melting away just leaving the fringe crazies to shrivel up and go away.
I agree, I wouldn't want to lay my cards on the table open carrying either and get popped off the bat.
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Post by dannusmaximus on Jul 3, 2014 14:12:47 GMT
Nice job, open carry douchebags. Another major retailer is implementing a no firearms policy because you shitheads are open carrying rifles and scaring people. online.wsj.com/articles/target-asks-customers-to-keep-guns-out-of-stores-1404311690Maybe somebody with some knowledge of PR and marketing techniques should politely inform these nutjobs that SCARING AND ALIENATING PEOPLE DOESN'T HELP SELL YOUR PRODUCT?!?! On a related topic, I routinely ignore the 'no firearms allowed' notices posted anywhere but government facilities. I'm concealed carrying, so nobody is going to know anyway, and I believe the worst case scenario is I'll be asked to leave if a worker notices I'm carrying. Am I an asshole? |
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Post by NamelessStain on Jul 3, 2014 14:24:18 GMT
Sadly Target doesn't want any firearms (including concealed) in their stores. Now the question is "What is the penalty if they do?"
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Post by dannusmaximus on Jul 3, 2014 14:30:10 GMT
Sadly Target doesn't want any firearms (including concealed) in their stores. Now the question is "What is the penalty if they do?" That's just it. I think all they can say is "Please leave". If you don't, then they call the cops and shenanigans ensue. If you do, it's all good. I've never run into a situation where I got busted carrying concealed where it's not allowed, but I would think a simple "Geez, sorry about that. Didn't notice the sign. I'm happy to take my business elsewhere, didn't mean to cause anybody any grief..." while you're walking to the door would suffice. |
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