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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 13, 2014 11:54:02 GMT
I'm convinced the only draw that matters and should be practiced as much as possible is the draw stroke from concealment. Open carry drawing and shooting from low ready is not training for concealed carry. If I am going to defend myself the ability to quickly get the pistol into action is paramount. Time to first round is quite important as well as first round accuracy. I've recently been timing my draw stroke with a shot clock. When I began this I was using a trigger cover holster. This holster only covers the trigger guard and leaves the rest of the gun exposed. The manner in which it's retained is by the wearers belt similar to the Mexican or Israeli method. I feel the extra bit of safety around a trigger for a few reasons is important. Draw times to first round hit (DT/FRH) with this holster and my trusty Glock 26 are 1.75-2.3s. The more I time myself and the more I run towards the 2s par times with this set up and the averages are declining in times. Now, the other day I took my Glock 29 to the range because I haven't shot it in awhile. I was running a Galco leather holster with a high guard. This holster is rigid and fits the pistol well. I was noticing my DT/FRH time was running in the 1.7s time frame consistently. I thought, wow, all that practice is paying off. So I consciously tried to go faster and I hit a 1.6s. Then a 1.5 and then my best time to date 1.42s but this was a C zone hit. With speed you lose precision. At the time I did not realize why but when I had a chance to think about it I now realize it was the holster and the larger grip of the Glock 29 (G29). The G29 is the same size as a G19. The increased grip size aids in getting a firm grip on the pistol. The next factor was the traditional IWB holster. It did not hold the pistol in with an external tension like the trigger guard holster. The tension from the belt slows the draw because it increases friction. The Galco G29 holster has very little tension. Next trip I'm going to try my kydex Lyon Concealment (Yupe, pimping his holsters  ) holsters. I have OTB and IWB holster from my Glock 19 and 26. At home when I practice my draws these generally feel faster but however with out a shot times it's impossible to know. Findings: The holster and grip size of the pistol have a impact on DT/FRH. With the right holster and gun combination par times can be lower. The amount of tension on the pistol will affect par times. A good combination of the two can shave up to 0.5s off the draw time. Generally I don't like gaming for better times but in real life there are no rules and when it comes to fighting for your life; ALWAYS CHEAT, ALWAYS WIN. <<<Yes, that was a bit dramatic but I don't care. ETA: I'm going to add some pics later one. Like a ninja  |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 13, 2014 12:00:15 GMT
Since I like to have conversations, what have others found? Do you practice your draw? What holsters are you using?
I usually carry a Glock 26 with a trigger guard holster. My draw consists of lifting and clearing the cover garment. Getting a firm grip and putting straight up, pressing out as I engage the trigger presetting it and once I pic up my front sight I press the trigger and discharge a round.
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Post by Browning35 on May 13, 2014 13:03:29 GMT
I generally practice drawing in bursts of activity and then I'll leave it alone for a bit. Mostly consists of getting the shirt out of the way, getting a sure grip on the pistol and then drawing and getting the thing out. Seems like where people fumble and fuck it up IRL is where it gets hung up in their shirt. Also practiced drawing where a buddy tries to prevent it and take it away from you. Not exactly a ECQC course, but better than nothing.
Usually practicing comes in fits and starts after I read something or saw some video that spoke to me and I practice it some more. The ranges don't allow it here (they're worried about the liability of someone shooting themselves, seeing how wild and unsafe some of the people at the pistol part of the local range are on Saturdays I can see why). I have absolutely no idea how fast I am, no timer. From what I understand they have apps for some cellphones for this, but my phone is having issues. Can't download new apps, can't take pics, shutting the net down sometimes in mid-post and so on. I need a new phone. When I get a new phone I'll try one of those apps out as I've always kinda wondered what my times are as people are always talking about it. Any suggestions on a phone app for when I finally get a new phone? (probably another iPhone)
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 13, 2014 13:51:56 GMT
I tried the IPSC app but the timer beep starts that the beginning of the beep. The normal shot timer starts at the end of the beep. While it may not seem like a big deal the beep lasts about 0.5s and that isn't a good way to measure as long as everyone else measures it with a shot clock.
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Post by Browning35 on May 13, 2014 16:14:05 GMT
I could always just subtract 0.5 from my times of comparing them to others.
Don't really want to spend $150-$200 on something that I'm only mildly curious about and it would be more of a way of judging my own improvement any way as I progress rather than seeing how fast I am compared to other shooters.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 13, 2014 16:47:24 GMT
Yeah, I'm totally unconcerned about how fast I am versus others. The only draw that matters to me is mine because in the cold, dark rainy alley with the wet cat and the tipped over trashcan, it's just about me.
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Post by redeyes on May 13, 2014 19:45:13 GMT
A belt is a big deal too. One of the reservations I had about your trigger cover holster is that you weren't wearing much of a belt with it. Seems like it would slide around or kinda bob up and down and be a pain while running. With a good belt I think it would be fine
Some retention is good on a holster, but I am against all leather IWB holsters. Wearing a belt while CCW'ing a pistol and spare mags means wearing a thick belt and cinching it up tight. The tension put on a leather holster by this will cause it to collapse some and, depending oh how tight the belt is, can cause alot of unnecessary drag. Full kydex or kydex/leather hybrids are stiffer and transmit less tension.
Cover garment selection is a big deal too. I have some shirts that are loose enough not to print but are just tight enough to get hung up a bit on my pistol sometimes. On IWB holsters making sure clips and other hardware don't stick out enough to snag your shirt is important.
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Post by nxp on May 14, 2014 0:47:39 GMT
Nice times RG.
Fastest holster I've got (according to the clock) is the Remora, positioned right around 1-1:30oc. Time increased slightly at 3:30oc (due to shirt coverage), and even more at 4:30oc. If the shirt is tucked in, but with a traditional IWB setup, times improved all the way around (duh). With a shirt to clear, shots on at about 2sec and that's practised at a steady, concentrated motion.
My guns are either compacts or full sized, so I can't really compare any issues with grips. I could see how a short grip might take a smidge longer to get squared on target depending on your initial grip.
Something I hope to practice more this summer is a compound action on the draw - I'm a sucker for always having a cup of something in my shooting hand. I do it at work, at home, hell if I'm out walking around I've usually got a waterbottle or something in it. I need to start thinking about freeing that hand as I start to clean the shirt so Mr. Java can be replaced with Mr. Bang in short order. You'd think that just dropping the cup would be easy...
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Post by Gingerbread Man on May 14, 2014 10:19:04 GMT
Relevant?
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Post by redeyes on May 14, 2014 15:14:14 GMT
Yeah, I agree with that video. Two handed draw gets the most attention because it is the most reliable and should be your go to, but one handed draws should be practiced. We should do one handed draw to one handed shot to A zone on the timer next time.
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Post by RTF Squared on May 15, 2014 0:56:16 GMT
Good conversation. I use the Surefire shot timer app, but it isn't that great at picking up shots, so I use the par timer function set at two seconds. I can generally get at least one and sometimes two off before the second beep. Not very precise, and I do want to invest in a shot timer. The timer is less for dick measuring with others and more for providing an material number I can refer to and to gauge my own progress.
As Redeyes stated, the proper cover garment is key. Anybody who goes through my photos can probably guess what my favorite one is, because I wear the shit out of it. Can't find a shirt that does the job as well as this single one nearly as well. I consider non-zip hoodies with the kangaroo pocket the best blend of concealment and draw time. The placement of the pocket helps break up printing a lot too. Unfortunately, they are seasonal. I need to go shirt shopping pretty bad, it's kinda embarrassing how much I wear the same shirt because how well it works for a cover garment. I also like Hawaiian shirts too, the light cloth tends to stay up where you leave it and is really comfortable for higher months.
As far as holsters go, there are some compromises and one must decide where the best fit lies. OWB>IWB for a draw time, but comes at the cost of concealment, I personally don't find OWB conceals well at all on my frame. I love using the G-code Incog clips in my IWB builds as the bend in the clip really shoves the gun into your side, making for the best possible concealment. On the other hand it makes getting a full firing grip out of the holster near-impossible and makes for a longer time to first shot and a less than perfect grip. Neither is acceptable to me, so I go with a more basic plastic clip for my personal gear. It prints more, but not too bad, and the difference on grip from the holster is night and day. As Redeyes said, making sure the attachment hardware doesn't print helps too. I find the pull-the-dot loops print most, G-code clips next, the IFI plastic clips print minimally and steel IWB clips are the lowest profile. I would use the steel, but they have a lot of drawbacks, their length requires a taller holster to get the same ride height and they fucking chew up belts.
I pretty much use the newest style/generation of light mounted pancake style holster I've concocted, usually at 2-3 oclock. Going to 12-1 appendix carry seems to cut a huge chunk off my draw time though. Still waiting for this fucker I sent a bunch of gear off for hydrodip to finish my appendix holster so I can put more science to this. Took me a lot to develop something that can conceal a 17 and TLR1 comfortably appendix, now I want to use it.
I used to practice one-handed draws exclusively, but bottom line two handed is just faster. I practice both now since they both have benefits. The reason I always practiced one-handed was based in "reality," pistols need to be able to be run one handed if it comes to it for whatever reason, and part of running the gun is clearing cover and drawing it. Two handed is still way faster, and ideally I'll have two hands, so I practice both the best and worst case scenarios.
Also, I feel sights come into play a lot on getting that first shot off. Three dots really dick with my eyes trying to pick up the front sight. I blacked out the rear of my Triji HD's with a marker to avoid this but haven't had a chance to shoot it a bunch to see if it really makes a difference. The HDs were a lot faster feeling than the old meprolights I had, but the rear dots still jacked with me. More on this later.
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Post by redeyes on May 15, 2014 18:19:47 GMT
Yeah, I dig the steel clips. My belt is made out of scuba webbing though.
I ran three dots a long time. The first time I used IDOT sights I realized how much better they were for me. I use IDOT Pro's now. My second choice would be a blacked out rear with an Ameriglo Pro front which I think is the same as the Trijicon HD front just $20 or so less.
I need to get rid of my gut so I can use an appendix holster. I like real beer and bad food.
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Post by RTF Squared on May 16, 2014 0:46:34 GMT
My last belt was a Blockhack! rigger's belt and it got chewed up by steel clips. Not legit scuba webbing, but enough to make me shy away from steel clips. Not trying to ruin my $60 SOE Cobra belt with a 30 cent steel clip, fuck that. If it works well for you, that's what matters, every aspect of carry is very personal and if you've thought it out down to the belt clip, more power to you. I'll respect your view even if I disagree with it.
I would also agree a quality belt is imperative to all things carry, and likely the draw too. Going from shitty commercial belts that have broke at the buckle, to a Blockhack!, to an SOE made improvements to every aspect of carry at each step. A good belt is pricey, but worth every cent. I need to get a good dress belt now.
I probably could of went cheaper on my sights by going Ameriglo, but I liked everything about the HD's when I bought them, and mostly still do. I thought it would function more like a plain rear in the day (WRONG!), and like a standard three dot night sight at night. I was correct in the latter assumption, but all green dots in the night still sucks. Applying sharpie marker to the rear dots made it do what I need, black in the day, very dim green dots at night. I'd still buy them again though. They are extremely good looking on a Glock, and the wide-ass U-shaped rear notch makes finding and aligning the front very easy. After the marker to the rear the only drawback is the forward hook designed for easier one-handed manipulation tends to get caught on my heavier winter sweaters coming out for the draw. My favorite sweater has a nice hole in it now. Whatever, if that ever happens in the rear world I'll just shoot through the fucker until my slide comes through the hole, then I'll shoot some more. Of note, the Glock "U" sights seemed to work really well for me, if there was a legit metal night sight that duplicated them, I likely would have bought them.
The video was great, the push-pull method is what I have always used for clearing cover with one hand. Kind of cracked up, I knew who the holster in the preview still was built by and what model it was, down to what features it has, off a two second glance. If you guys are ever looking for Kydex and I don't come to mind, Off The Grid Concepts (OTGhex.com) is who I'd buy if I didn't cook it. Legit that guy was a big part of the inspiration that got me cooking stuff, and he continues to amaze me as a builder. Not many can still impress me with Kydex builds, he does.
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Post by redeyes on May 16, 2014 10:13:13 GMT
I tried polymer clips on my Comptac Minotaur. I am sure they have better ones now, but I didn't care for the ones that came with the holster. The one closest to my posterior would get snagged on things and bend out. Then, when I would practice a draw my shirt would get hung up on the bent out clip. The steel clips occasionally get snagged too, but they go back to their original shape.
I have a leather belt that I don't wear with my steel clipped holsters much because it is apparent they would mess it up. Another negative to steel clips is you may have to deburr the bottom of them or they will chew through your pants. Deburred clips and scuba webbing belt are working pretty sweet for now, though.
What I would really like would be a clip that would go over your belt and have an adjustable snap on the open end that could put some pressure on your belt. I don't have much of an issue with my holster sliding around at the moment unless I really bang it on something, but some sort of anti slide clip would be cool.
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) holsters. I have OTB and IWB holster from my Glock 19 and 26. At home when I practice my draws these generally feel faster but however with out a shot times it's impossible to know. 
