Post by Gingerbread Man on Jan 21, 2014 16:28:48 GMT
Purpose of the Semi Auto 308 Battle Rifle By Gingerbread Man
Alright, please take this as my opinion because it is. If you jive, great. If not, I don't mind any discussion.
My background on this opinion which I'm about to expose. I've owned every single 308 battle rifle (defensive carbine/fighting rifle, et al) that has been fielded by a major power. Not only have I owned them, I shot the poop out of them and I've owned mulitple copies from all the major manufacturers. I've owned the DPMS AR-10 AP4 (Gun of the year by the NRA), multiple AR-10s by Armalite, DSA SA58s, a real FN FAL, Hk 91s, PTR 91s and mutiple copies of the M1A when they used USGI parts. I'm absolutely a 308 fan boy and I love battle rifles. That stated, they fill a niche that's so small their cost is not justified. Not only their monetary cost but their cost in weight, shot times and recoil.
Now, on to my take on them. They've been completely over taken by the intermediate caliber rifles as the defensive rifle and role the 308 rifle once filled. For the cost of most of these you could have an excellent AR-15, ammo, mags and most important, a training course. The difference in price is not the only driving factory, the ability to create a wound is. Modern loads for the 5.56, 7.62x39mm and 300 Black Out creates more than adequate wounds at distances out to 300yds. As a civilian who would have a hard time justifying a defensive shooting past 50yds, a 300yds envelope is more than adequate. 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel push those distances out further.
I'm not seeing a big difference in performance when using a modern load. As a hunting round the 308 does have an edge however justifying the cost of a semi auto 308 is difficult. A hunting rifle in 308 can be had that is easily more accurate and lighter can be had for at least $1000 less. The Ruger American is running around $325 and a MOA with most loads. I'm not seeing the need to go semi auto. Furthermore, at close ranges the intermediate rounds will create an adequate wound that will harvest deer sized game. Why is a semi auto necessary? Feral packs of hogs? If this is the concern I doubt a herd is being taken out for the harvesting of meat therefore the low recoil and low shot to shot recovery of the intermediate caliber rifle wins the day.
Speaking of shot recovery and shot times. On the 20th of January, 2014 I did a test for science. I tested the shot times to first round on target and the shot split times. I placed an IDPA man sized card board at 15 yds and fired 5 shot strings. I used the following rifles:
1. MSAR STG 556 Gen 4 (Steyr AUG clone) This rifle is a 16.5” rifle and I installed a fullsized 5.56 can on the barrel and had a EOTech 512 sight. Ammo: 55gr American Eagle 5.56. 2950 FPS
Time to first hit (TTFH): 0.90 secs
Split time (ST): 0.20
2. 7.5” 300 Black Out SBR AR-15 with Troy Hk iron sights. Ammo: 150gr FMJ 1900FPS
TTFH: 0.75
ST: 0.17
3. PTR 91 GI 16.5” OEM Iron sights. 150 gr FMJ 308. 2650 FPS
TTFH: 1.8-2.0
ST: 0.75-0.90
4. 6.5 Grendel AR-15 18” medium contour barrel with MI Hk style sights. Ammo: 140 gr Nosler ballistic tip hand loads running 2400 FPS
TTFH: 0.80
ST: 0.18-0.20
5. 308 Ruger Gunsite 16.5” Ammo: 150 gr FMJ
TTFH 1.25
ST: 2.3
I’m going to go into the specs on the 6.5 AR and the PTR 91 as they are the real points of interest in regard to this article. The 6.5 weights 7.2 lbs, I installed a CNC Warrior muzzle brake, is 36” long and is easily MOA accurate. A loaded 25 rd mag is 1.5 lbs. The 6.5 is doing 85% of what the 308 does. But!! The ammo is expensive. It cost the same as the 308 and if you really plan on shooting your rifle for training you’ll have to reload for both. Reloading costs for both are the same. The PTR 91 weights 9.2 lbs, is 41” long, and is MOA accurate with good ammo however recoil is taxing. The 6.5 recoils like a 5.56. Shooter fatigue is a factor that must be considered. I fired 200 rds with both rifles and the PTR caused fatigue and my shooting degraded. I did not experience any fatigue with the 6.5. Back to ammo costs, 308 surplus is not good ammo for accuracy work. At best it’s 4 MOA. It’s like putting snow shoes to run a marathon. You’re hobbling the system with poor ammo. Well, how am I supposed to train if I can’t buy oodles of ammo? Spend your money and time wisely. Realistically set your goals.
In the 5 shot string the 6.5 was 3 secs faster. It recoils less and the price point is the same for both rifles. They’re both about $1000 all in. Both require reloading for any amount of training if you plan on using them as a hunting rifle or a DMR. The 6.5 is more accurate longer due to low shooter fatigue. BUT! PTR mags are $3.50. Okay, but Grendel mags are only $12-15. A big plus on the Grendel side is it has 90% parts commonality with AR-15 which parts abound. Now, the PTR has one domestic source and one overseas source that is making current production parts.
Let's take a moment to examine the individual models if we're dead set on the semi auto 308.
The AR-10: Yes, the best ergos but it's hopelessly hobbled by inadequate reliability. Everyone I've owned has been ammo sensitive, magazine sensitive, lack durability and very sensitive to fouling. That stated, they're very accurate, easily MOA with good ammo and 2-4 MOA with surplus. When they run. Now, there are models that work very well but those cost $2500 and more. Sorry, that's absurd considering a Colt AR-15 is $1000 and there are other companies that are excellent producing sub $800 models. The extra $1500 just isn't worth it IMO. But there is good news on the AR-10 from. It appear multiple companies have redesigned the AR-10 and will be marketing them shortly. PSA, Double Star, Windham Weaponry all have new redesigned AR-10 that give hope for a good reliable AR-10 that is south of $1500. DPMS has annouced their Gen II AR-10 that appears to address the issues with their initial offering that failed for many users, this one included. Magpul is producing an excellent affordable magazine so I sincerely hope we get a good platform.
The FAL: These have been extremely reliable but the tilting bolt produces vertical stringing. I wish there was a way to get these more accurate by you can have two identical models, one will shoot great and the other will not. Vertical stringing is not limited to my experience, many others have had the same issue. My take on the FAL, it's over powered and if I'm using a cartridge that has the past 300 yd power it should have the past 300 yd accuracy. The FAL does not have that accuracy to operate within the range of the 308, therefore for a defensive rifle it's overly heavy, over powered and it's recoil just by the nature of cartridge is out of the realm of modern rifles suitable for the task. Sad because the FAL has potential due to it's very good ergonomics. The controls are exactly where they should be. It's also to expensive for the lack of accuracy, DSA guns run $1400ish. There are models available for less however the further down the scale you run, the worse the platform gets.
The Hk91 and it's clones: Original Hk 91s are absurdly priced. Pass. The new PTR91 clones are excellent deals if you're just married to the concept of a 308 semiauto. They're 100% reliable, contrary to internet rumors the brass is reloadable, they run on steel cased ammo and are accurate, easily MOA with good ammo. The heavy trigger can easily be tuned to a service trigger level with a stone and 30 minutes of work. Magazine are $3 for aluminum and $7 for the brutally strong steel. Right now they have several models under $900. It's true, the ergos can not compare to the AR-15 however with a moderate amount of training these can be over come. Fast mag reloads, sorry but be honest with yourself, are you really going to need to reload a semi auto 308 quickly?
The Springfield Armory M1A: $1500 for the base model with a plastic stock that doesn't have metal inserts. This is a Mini 14 in 308 with $25 mags. It's not the M14 nor do the new ones use USGI parts. It's a good rifle but needs a stock upgrade which pushes the price up. Accurate, gentle on brass but the ergo are not on par and stuck in the 40's.
I’m a complete 308 and battle rifle fanboy. Dyed in the wool. However, an honest assessment of these rifles illustrates that their time has passed. I love shooting my PTRs. I do so want a SCAR 17 but is this the wisest use of funds if you’re truly looking for an accurate semi auto rifle with more power than a 5.56? My reflection says no.
Once again, this is solely my impressions and my opinion. You may have an entirely different take.
Alright, please take this as my opinion because it is. If you jive, great. If not, I don't mind any discussion.
My background on this opinion which I'm about to expose. I've owned every single 308 battle rifle (defensive carbine/fighting rifle, et al) that has been fielded by a major power. Not only have I owned them, I shot the poop out of them and I've owned mulitple copies from all the major manufacturers. I've owned the DPMS AR-10 AP4 (Gun of the year by the NRA), multiple AR-10s by Armalite, DSA SA58s, a real FN FAL, Hk 91s, PTR 91s and mutiple copies of the M1A when they used USGI parts. I'm absolutely a 308 fan boy and I love battle rifles. That stated, they fill a niche that's so small their cost is not justified. Not only their monetary cost but their cost in weight, shot times and recoil.
Now, on to my take on them. They've been completely over taken by the intermediate caliber rifles as the defensive rifle and role the 308 rifle once filled. For the cost of most of these you could have an excellent AR-15, ammo, mags and most important, a training course. The difference in price is not the only driving factory, the ability to create a wound is. Modern loads for the 5.56, 7.62x39mm and 300 Black Out creates more than adequate wounds at distances out to 300yds. As a civilian who would have a hard time justifying a defensive shooting past 50yds, a 300yds envelope is more than adequate. 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel push those distances out further.
I'm not seeing a big difference in performance when using a modern load. As a hunting round the 308 does have an edge however justifying the cost of a semi auto 308 is difficult. A hunting rifle in 308 can be had that is easily more accurate and lighter can be had for at least $1000 less. The Ruger American is running around $325 and a MOA with most loads. I'm not seeing the need to go semi auto. Furthermore, at close ranges the intermediate rounds will create an adequate wound that will harvest deer sized game. Why is a semi auto necessary? Feral packs of hogs? If this is the concern I doubt a herd is being taken out for the harvesting of meat therefore the low recoil and low shot to shot recovery of the intermediate caliber rifle wins the day.
Speaking of shot recovery and shot times. On the 20th of January, 2014 I did a test for science. I tested the shot times to first round on target and the shot split times. I placed an IDPA man sized card board at 15 yds and fired 5 shot strings. I used the following rifles:
1. MSAR STG 556 Gen 4 (Steyr AUG clone) This rifle is a 16.5” rifle and I installed a fullsized 5.56 can on the barrel and had a EOTech 512 sight. Ammo: 55gr American Eagle 5.56. 2950 FPS
Time to first hit (TTFH): 0.90 secs
Split time (ST): 0.20
2. 7.5” 300 Black Out SBR AR-15 with Troy Hk iron sights. Ammo: 150gr FMJ 1900FPS
TTFH: 0.75
ST: 0.17
3. PTR 91 GI 16.5” OEM Iron sights. 150 gr FMJ 308. 2650 FPS
TTFH: 1.8-2.0
ST: 0.75-0.90
4. 6.5 Grendel AR-15 18” medium contour barrel with MI Hk style sights. Ammo: 140 gr Nosler ballistic tip hand loads running 2400 FPS
TTFH: 0.80
ST: 0.18-0.20
5. 308 Ruger Gunsite 16.5” Ammo: 150 gr FMJ
TTFH 1.25
ST: 2.3
I’m going to go into the specs on the 6.5 AR and the PTR 91 as they are the real points of interest in regard to this article. The 6.5 weights 7.2 lbs, I installed a CNC Warrior muzzle brake, is 36” long and is easily MOA accurate. A loaded 25 rd mag is 1.5 lbs. The 6.5 is doing 85% of what the 308 does. But!! The ammo is expensive. It cost the same as the 308 and if you really plan on shooting your rifle for training you’ll have to reload for both. Reloading costs for both are the same. The PTR 91 weights 9.2 lbs, is 41” long, and is MOA accurate with good ammo however recoil is taxing. The 6.5 recoils like a 5.56. Shooter fatigue is a factor that must be considered. I fired 200 rds with both rifles and the PTR caused fatigue and my shooting degraded. I did not experience any fatigue with the 6.5. Back to ammo costs, 308 surplus is not good ammo for accuracy work. At best it’s 4 MOA. It’s like putting snow shoes to run a marathon. You’re hobbling the system with poor ammo. Well, how am I supposed to train if I can’t buy oodles of ammo? Spend your money and time wisely. Realistically set your goals.
In the 5 shot string the 6.5 was 3 secs faster. It recoils less and the price point is the same for both rifles. They’re both about $1000 all in. Both require reloading for any amount of training if you plan on using them as a hunting rifle or a DMR. The 6.5 is more accurate longer due to low shooter fatigue. BUT! PTR mags are $3.50. Okay, but Grendel mags are only $12-15. A big plus on the Grendel side is it has 90% parts commonality with AR-15 which parts abound. Now, the PTR has one domestic source and one overseas source that is making current production parts.
Let's take a moment to examine the individual models if we're dead set on the semi auto 308.
The AR-10: Yes, the best ergos but it's hopelessly hobbled by inadequate reliability. Everyone I've owned has been ammo sensitive, magazine sensitive, lack durability and very sensitive to fouling. That stated, they're very accurate, easily MOA with good ammo and 2-4 MOA with surplus. When they run. Now, there are models that work very well but those cost $2500 and more. Sorry, that's absurd considering a Colt AR-15 is $1000 and there are other companies that are excellent producing sub $800 models. The extra $1500 just isn't worth it IMO. But there is good news on the AR-10 from. It appear multiple companies have redesigned the AR-10 and will be marketing them shortly. PSA, Double Star, Windham Weaponry all have new redesigned AR-10 that give hope for a good reliable AR-10 that is south of $1500. DPMS has annouced their Gen II AR-10 that appears to address the issues with their initial offering that failed for many users, this one included. Magpul is producing an excellent affordable magazine so I sincerely hope we get a good platform.
The FAL: These have been extremely reliable but the tilting bolt produces vertical stringing. I wish there was a way to get these more accurate by you can have two identical models, one will shoot great and the other will not. Vertical stringing is not limited to my experience, many others have had the same issue. My take on the FAL, it's over powered and if I'm using a cartridge that has the past 300 yd power it should have the past 300 yd accuracy. The FAL does not have that accuracy to operate within the range of the 308, therefore for a defensive rifle it's overly heavy, over powered and it's recoil just by the nature of cartridge is out of the realm of modern rifles suitable for the task. Sad because the FAL has potential due to it's very good ergonomics. The controls are exactly where they should be. It's also to expensive for the lack of accuracy, DSA guns run $1400ish. There are models available for less however the further down the scale you run, the worse the platform gets.
The Hk91 and it's clones: Original Hk 91s are absurdly priced. Pass. The new PTR91 clones are excellent deals if you're just married to the concept of a 308 semiauto. They're 100% reliable, contrary to internet rumors the brass is reloadable, they run on steel cased ammo and are accurate, easily MOA with good ammo. The heavy trigger can easily be tuned to a service trigger level with a stone and 30 minutes of work. Magazine are $3 for aluminum and $7 for the brutally strong steel. Right now they have several models under $900. It's true, the ergos can not compare to the AR-15 however with a moderate amount of training these can be over come. Fast mag reloads, sorry but be honest with yourself, are you really going to need to reload a semi auto 308 quickly?
The Springfield Armory M1A: $1500 for the base model with a plastic stock that doesn't have metal inserts. This is a Mini 14 in 308 with $25 mags. It's not the M14 nor do the new ones use USGI parts. It's a good rifle but needs a stock upgrade which pushes the price up. Accurate, gentle on brass but the ergo are not on par and stuck in the 40's.
I’m a complete 308 and battle rifle fanboy. Dyed in the wool. However, an honest assessment of these rifles illustrates that their time has passed. I love shooting my PTRs. I do so want a SCAR 17 but is this the wisest use of funds if you’re truly looking for an accurate semi auto rifle with more power than a 5.56? My reflection says no.
Once again, this is solely my impressions and my opinion. You may have an entirely different take.
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