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Post by LowKey on Jul 27, 2015 7:21:39 GMT
Hi, it's me... your local heretic, back to incite the urge to set up a stake and light up a bonfire!
I'm pondering something (always a dangerous activity for me);
In real life defensive shoots, how often do people manage to get a good two handed stance going (weaver or isosceles)?
Obviously it's not a static range and lots of other things are (and should be) happening in the high stress enviroment created by the gunfight.
Now, a couple of things come to mind.
As a tanker I was taught to shoot, move, and communicate simultaneously in combat while under fire. Failing to do any one of those three things would drastically increase my tank's odds of not winning. Firing is obviously a no-brainer necessity. Moving is important... moving targets are harder to hit, and movement is how you get to places where you can take advantage of cover. Communication keeps any friendlies up to date on your situation and if you're lucky you can coordinate your actions.
I seem to recall the Marines have a adage that goes something like, "If you're using proper sight picture and shooting technique then you aren't moving enough or making adequate use of available cover."
Those two bits of wisdom have me questioning the usefulness of training two handed pistol grips(and the postures that go with them) as the "primary" technique for self defense.
Adding fuel to the fire are obsevations on this forum from folks who've been to classes for close quarters defensive pistol work who pointed out no one in the class could recall seeing or using the sights.
Isn't our off hand more likely to be in use; either grappling, pushing, pulling, or blocking our attacker, or opening/closing a door, shoving a loved one out of the way or behind cover, reloading, holding a flashlight, ect?
No doubt we may see an increase in accuracy using two hands in a iscosoloes/weaver stance vs one handed shooting, but how much increase(if any) does it provide when you're moving rapidly (not a slow walk).
I suspect that there isn't much difference in practical accuracy (hitting vitals vs bullseye shooting) when moving rapidly.*
I also suspect that simply learning how to maintain good balance and stability while standing, walking, and running would give most of the same benefits to accuracy that weaver and isoscolese bring just by giving the gun platform stability. It's the same sort of balance learned in martial arts, dynamic not static.
So, should we focus more on one handed pistol work than on two handed stances? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
*Pull the weapon in closer to your center of gravity to reduce the jostling of the weapon.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jul 27, 2015 13:54:50 GMT
I whole heartedly agree. Defensive shooting is not bullseye shooting. Two handed technique is great however, you're going to use you left for blocking, working the flash light, moving object, pushing, pushing or pulling loved ones, etc. Sage Dynamics classes are all about realism and the first night shoot was all one handed. He's pushing everything draw one handed and move.
Yes, I think it's time to change the two handed steady stance to the one handed move, shoot and communicate. I'm a big proponent in martial arts of constant movement and stay moving. Staying planted and exchanging blows is stupid. Hit and move. Same goes with gun fights, hit and move.
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Post by as556 on Jul 27, 2015 14:13:37 GMT
I shoot with both hands the vast majority of the time but do practice both ways. Last time I was out I practiced strong side only reloads and malfunction clearance in my G17. That said I think, for me, two handed training will always be my main choice. I've seen more than a few police shooting videos (they're on a gore site..graphic but can link if needed) where both hands were used. I can see the poor sight picture thing, like you said it's not bullseye shooting but you will still likely get the "flash" sight picture people often speak of. I personally rarely carry a flashlight (sue me), it's often times just me, my pistol and a knife. I have no children and my girlfriend likely would know to move out of the danger area without me physically moving her. I also think its more responsible in a civil respect to use both hands whenever possible because we are still accountable for every round leaving the gun and the accuracy and recoil management benefits of using both hands is substantial.
Does this mean I think the concept is invalid? NO. Quite the opposite. Its definitely a skill to have in your toolbag if such a situation should arise. Obviously I shoot 1 handed when shooting from retention but if they are more than contact distance I'm not tied up with a task using my support side hand then both hands will most definitely be on the gun. If I need to use the phone I'll put it on speaker and set it next to me. My primary concern is going to be retaining control of the weapon and getting rounds on target quickly, and two hands gives me the best chance of that.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jul 27, 2015 15:15:51 GMT
Nothing more to add but next heresy will be on the scout rifle concept. Because I want to. Carry on.  |
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Post by LowKey on Jul 27, 2015 15:50:04 GMT
Tony,
I don't think it's going to be a case of consciously chooseing to do one over the other, it's just going to happen based on circumstances.
You're behind cover shooting at a barricaded suspect?
You're shooting at an armed suspect who is engaged with/focused on your partner?
You're sort of chained to your vehicle (may need to use it to pursue if he rabbits)?
Wearing heavier body armor and have been taught to present that surface to the attacker (vs blading your unarmored toro to reduce the target area presented to gunfire)?
All those sound like good cases for two hands.
Running lime hell for cover while returning fire?
Attack starts at 21ft or less?
Attack starts as good ole barehanded push-shove aggression by momma's little darling and next thing you know he's got a gat in his hand, one you're going to instinctively try and push away?
Trying to push some fat bastatd of a stranger through the firedoor so you can also shelter behind some concrete wall goodness?
All of those are going to be one handed.
The more I think about it the more I conclude that the two handed stances need distance between you and the target and you to stand still(ish), either with or without the benefit of cover.
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Post by omegaman on Jul 27, 2015 17:03:00 GMT
I'm guilty of spending my range time in a nice two-handed solid stance (more so pistol than carbine) trying to get those bullseyes. Definitely need to remember to practice some one-handed flash sight picture drills.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jul 27, 2015 17:18:00 GMT
I hate to say it but it's front sight flash. Getting that perfect sight picture isn't going to happen. Standing still will get you hit.
Case in point: During the sims class I moved at a fast walk laterally in front of an adversary. I didn't use my sights as I was gangster and shooting one handed. He had a perfect stance and plowed rds at me. He hit me with a grazing shot. I popped him dead center in the chest. I'd have been in the ER, he'd have been on the surgury table.
There are more cases like this from class but speed, aggression, and "instinctively" pumping rounds out at close range wins. Once you get to 15 yds, you need to start using sights but we were easily 80% hits with never using our sights because this all very close fights.
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Post by as556 on Jul 27, 2015 20:31:56 GMT
Lowkey, yep I agree its totally situational. I may even wager a guess and say you're on to something and that one handed shooting deserves 50/50 training time with two handed practice. I try and practice unconventional shooting positions, rollover prone (under vehicles), strong and weak side, retention shooting at 1-2m on a B27, etc etc, but sometimes I just want to have a nice plinking day at the range with no dirt and sweat. I'm about to hit the reloading bench and crank some .38 158gr SWCs out and next time I'm at the range I'm going to run drills and defensive shooting with ye olde six shooter. Ironically I can shoot that DA trigger as fast and accurately as anything else I own, capacity is really the only downside. Reloads with an HKS aren't as hard as they're made out to be. Hmm..strayed a bit off topic there |
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Post by red on Jul 27, 2015 22:43:20 GMT
In my class he had us do the standard 2 hand static shoot. He gauged us then went onto movement while shooting and one handed static. The the final was one hand ( strong and weak) while moving on 1/2 size steel targets. Doing mag dumps in a S&W Shield while moving front back side to side with a weak hand grip at anywhere from 7 yards to ponit blank, well it was different. Showed me my weaknesses.
Now the public ranges around here i cant do that. I can stand in one spot at 1 paper target and do slow 2 hand fire. I need to buy a lot of property.
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Post by nxp on Jul 28, 2015 0:16:17 GMT
I'm guilty of Omega's sin also. It's an easy trap to fall into, especially with draw practice.
I would like to throw out the arguement that two hands, regardless of how poorly they may be positioned on the gun, are still superior than one hand for recoil management. The real crux, in my feeble mind, is the sight picture. Everyone that goes through basic pistol shooting has sight picture burned into their skull, and with that a solid stance/foundation to maintain it at all costs through shooting. Could you run/gun with two hands and get rounds on target? Yup. Can you do it with a rock solid sight picture? You're way better than most if you can.
That's where the red-dot comes into play - I would love to hear from GBM if his reddot would have helped/harmed his abilities at SAGE. Lets say you don't even see the dot, you've got a MASSIVE ghost ring to get you at least in the C range of the target. The faster your brain can tell your finger to GOGOGOGOGO the better off you are.
So, TLDR ramblings of a madman intent on derailing a perfectly good witchhunt, I say one hand shooting should be trained but a two hand grip with a better system for maintaining sight picture while moving dynamically would be optimal.
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jul 28, 2015 0:40:58 GMT
Moar tomorrow but 2 hands are way better than one, however it's next to impossible to move objects, open doors and toss stuff with two hands on gun. I cheat and practice opening doors, moving stuff and people with my shoulders and feet. 2nd degree black belt skillz.
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Post by Browning35 on Jul 28, 2015 1:03:01 GMT
If you've trained extensively in shooting one handed to do other things with your support hand (calling the police on your cell, herding loved ones out of the line of fire, grabbing needed gear or to employ additional arms) I guess it's possible to use a one handed shooting technique as your primary.
Personally I shoot much better using a two handed hold over any sort of one handed hold, especially when moving. If I'm shooting at someone and they'll just hold still for a second and I'm using a two handed hold while I'm moving forward, lateral or behind cover it's almost a certainty that they're gonna get shot.
However if I'm shooting one handed while moving and only using either dominant or weak hand? My hit rate is about 50% on 8 inch plates at 15 to 25y+ while moving slowly and shooting with one hand. Bang/Ding - Bang/Ding - Bang/Miss - Bang/Miss - Bang/Miss - Bang/Ding - Bang/Ding - Bang/Miss. Not proud of that shit at all and most of the others I've shot against in fuck around competitions or class have been even worse on one handed shooting. Lotta airballs. Steel doesn't lie.
At 3 to 10 yards I'm obviously better one handed and my hit ratio is a higher percentage, still inconsistent compared to using two hands.
So if you've already nailed that particular skill down well enough to where you're considering using it as your primary more power to you. I'm just totally not there yet.
If I get into a jacked up situation and I have loved ones I want to get out of the way I'll likely shove them out of the way onto the floor the way I've trained, ignore their protests or crying and then use a two handed hold to shoot, secure any weapons off the dead/dying, back to loved ones, apologize for shoving them while moving to a better location, put my back to wall and call PD.
Can't do two things at once, shooting takes precedence and I'm not that great with just one hand. That's based on my personal skill level, my strengths as well as my deficiencies right now though. That may eventually change, but it's what I'd do right now.
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Post by nxp on Jul 28, 2015 1:32:45 GMT
Moar tomorrow but 2 hands are way better than one, however it's next to impossible to move objects, open doors and toss stuff with two hands on gun. I cheat and practice opening doors, moving stuff and people with my shoulders and feet. 2nd degree black belt skillz. Colored trouser supports aside, why do I have this image of GBM pulling a Koolaid man on random objects. Because it's badass - that's why. So, since I know GBM has a toy with a red dot on it, for the sake of SCIENCE!!!!, hows about you run to the sandpit and pop a few with the red dot single handed vs a standard Austrian perfection while say texting SCB, or take a folding chair and toss that shit around, or any other multitude of mundane things that would tie up a single hand.  Coffee? I would bet that even with the single hand the larger ring of the RDS would increase hit percentage. |
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Post by Gingerbread Man on Jul 28, 2015 1:53:49 GMT
Oh yeah, I can do that. We have chairs, tables and barrels at the range. I'll drag redeyes out and shove him around a bit. Good idea.
I can work it like "You ain't holdin' mah beer!"
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Post by dannusmaximus on Jul 28, 2015 4:07:44 GMT
I seem to recall the Marines have a adage that goes something like, "If you're using proper sight picture and shooting technique then you aren't moving enough or making adequate use of available cover." Well, if you're talking infantry tactics, when you're moving you're MOVING. Other guys with guns are doing the shooting for you. Our MOUT training (late 90's, never deployed so take this with whatever grain of salt you need to) instructors quickly stopped guys who were running while pointing their rifles at something, basically saying that it's impossible to hit something when you're at a dead run, and it just slows you down and makes you more likely to trip over shit. So you run yo' ass to cover, then plant and shoot while the next group moves. I personally would not advocate running while shooting in a SD situation. I've done moving while shooting on the range, and the results are always pretty wretched, no matter how slowly I'm moving, unless I'm within scant feet of the target. You are responsible for every bullet, after all. Running while shooting over my left shoulder (or whatever) would be no bueno for me. SO, learning one-handed shooting is important, no doubt. But I personally think that teaching to get somewhere that gives you the best possible shooting position is more important. For me, that's moving to cover and taking a two-handed grip if at all possible. Practice shooting while standing behind cover, under cover, crouched behind cover, lying down behind cover, etc. All of these can be done with a good two-hand grip. |
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