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Post by Browning35 on Jan 17, 2015 19:05:00 GMT
Wonder if Letter # 1 stating that it was okay to touch the brace to the shoulder while firing could be successfully used in court to claim entrapment? Possibly, I'm wondering if Sig will challenge the ATF in court over this. They have the most to lose as the ATF has been inconsistent on this and Sig had made a boatload of money on the Sig Brace. First the ATF was saying that there's no wrong/illegal method to shooting a pistol and now they've come out with this letter saying that there is. If unchallenged that could set a dangerous precedent that just bleeds over into other guns and new designs. Didn't Sig successfully sue the ATF and win over their ruling that the Sig MPX was a suppressor? Could have sworn that I remember reading that a few months ago, but multiple searches didn't turn anything up. For mine I'll do one of a couple different things. 1) In the next 6 months create a trust and start the wait to SBR that gun and get a suppressor on top of it. 2) Throw on a bipod and a Leupold extended eye-relief scope and use it for handgun hunting on hogs and coyotes the same way hunters/shooters use Thompson Contenders or Savage bolt action pistols (full extension, rested off a tree or a bipod). In short, always use long pistol techniques to shoot it rather than than the shooter periodically touching it to their shoulder here and there like most people did with the Sig brace since its introduction. 3) Sell the AR pistol altogether and use the money towards a . . . • 14.5" lightweight AR. • Towards a Manners folding stock bolt action .308 Win rifle. • Towards a Stainless Steel 18" inch 1/8 SPR type AR with a 3.5x TA-11G ACOG that I want. I still have that stripped receiver, so even if I sold it I still have that receiver to build one of those two hypotetical AR's on. 4) Turn the pistol lower and LPK into a 14.5 in lightweight carbine. This involves selling the pistol upper and the MI pistol buffer tube/Sig Brace (since I don't know if I could legally keep the pistol upper, brace and buffer tube around to re-install in case the ATF Sig Brace ruling was ever reversed after a hypothetical suit by Sig since I have other AR's that are rifles or if that would be ' constructive possession' of an unregistered SBR. Probably wouldn't fuck with it though if I went that route. I'd just take off the pistol buffer tube/brace and upper and sell them and then buy a 14.5" in lightweight upper with flutes or golf ball type intentions to reduce the weight even further, have a permanently attached muzzle device installed and throw on a 6-position tube and a Rogers Super-Stoc (*Click*)___ If I sold it altogether I probably wouldn't get the monetary amount that I have in that trade. The market is good for buyers right now, not so much for sellers. For the next several months to a year I'd likely get raped trying to get my money out of it by selling it outright. As a result I'm leaning towards Number 1 and getting a tax stamp SBR'ing that AR pistol. Or towards Number 4 and using the lower and LPK as a basis for a super-lightweight 14.5" AR carbine or an 18" in SPR type with a 3.5 ACOG. As I said before this involves either selling or keeping the pistol upper/buffer tube/brace (depending on if it's legal to have these pistol parts laying around or not or if that's legally considered ' Constructive Possession') just in case there's a reversal of this decision at some point in the future. Both would involve roughly the same amount of money ($800 to $900). Number 1) : $400-$500 for the trust, $200 for the stamp and $100 for the stock. blog.princelaw.com/2007/12/19/national-firearms-act-estate-planning-101/
ATF 41P Proposal Rule Changes In Regards To Trusts - CLEO's in some Counties like Dallas won't even sign off for their own officers (*Click*)There's proposed rule changes for the NFA and gun trusts apparently from doing a bit of reading, so I'd have to get on it if I went this route. Number 4) : Turn that pistol lower into a 14.5 lightweight or an 18 inch SPR. $750 for a ( BCM 14.5" in w/13 inch Key Mod Rail (*Click*) plus $100 for a stock and carbine buffer tube. I was looking at DD and Noveske 14.5's, but they're way more unless anyone knows of a Noveske or DD 14.5" upper for less than $1200?), 14.5" complete upper and $100 for a stock.
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Post by homerj on Jan 17, 2015 20:33:26 GMT
If you go the Trust route I would love to see you walk us through the process. I still don't have enough motivation to bend over for an SBR or anything that needs a tax stamp but if the trust process isn't too painful it may change my mind.
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Post by LowKey on Jan 18, 2015 9:17:18 GMT
If you go the Trust route I would love to see you walk us through the process. I still don't have enough motivation to bend over for an SBR or anything that needs a tax stamp but if the trust process isn't too painful it may change my mind. I have a trust that has 7 stamps. 1 SBR and 6 other form 1's for cans. There is no need to pay nearly $500 for a trust. Search around and you can find paralegal services that have them available for less than $40. PM me and I'll refer you to who I used. Basic trust documents are rather simple. So for $250 plus parts (and a wait for e-forms to process your form 1) and you have an SBR. Be sure to include your spouse in the trust as a trustee so they can handle the weapon in your absence.
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Post by homerj on Jan 18, 2015 17:56:48 GMT
With a trust are there still the restrictions and reporting requirements on transportation and moving?
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Post by MrEMonkey on Jan 18, 2015 18:42:05 GMT
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Post by MrEMonkey on Jan 18, 2015 19:02:12 GMT
Incidentally, I'm thinking about buying another Sig Brace for the AR pistol I'm currently building: Not even because I hate sharing (lol), but for the intent of strapping BOTH pistols to my arms (like they are designed to be used) and dual wield those mofos, because it sounds fun. (Reloads would be a hassle. Maybe I need a couple of Magpul drums...yes, yes...I like this idea).
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Post by LowKey on Jan 18, 2015 19:02:49 GMT
With a trust are there still the restrictions and reporting requirements on transportation and moving? If by restrictions you mean that you have to send in the letter/form sating you intend to travel with it (citing which states) or a permanent move, yes. Keep in mind, I've never heard of them raising a stink about that. My preference is to send one in per stamp each year, lisitn all the states in which the item is legal and citing the period of trave to be 1 Jan through 31 Dec. Bases covered, bases staying covered. Really guys, the paperwork is easy. E-forms is/are easy. It's just $200 per stamp. If you think about it you can easily blow $200 taking the in-laws out to dinner. Cans and SBRs await. Cans will save what's left of your hearing (says the old tanker). SBRs make it easier to tote your long-gat. What's not to like? PM me if you want a discussion on trusts.
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Post by MrEMonkey on Jan 18, 2015 19:12:33 GMT
Filling out an ATF form 20 to ask my dirty uncle if I can take it shooting with my folks 50 miles away? Once or twice a month?
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Post by LowKey on Jan 18, 2015 19:50:16 GMT
Filling out an ATF form 20 to ask my dirty uncle if I can take it shooting with my folks 50 miles away? Once or twice a month? I'm not disagreeing, but I hate doing my income taxes each year as well. Doesn't mean I'd rather not have an income. Drop the form 20 once a year and have it cover all the states an SBR is legal in and have it run for 365 days. Bases covered. Or stick with a 16+ inch barrel. No shame in that, better velocity as a general rule of thumb. Just not as comfy to tote about. (YMMV)
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Post by as556 on Jan 18, 2015 19:57:59 GMT
Are we still allowed to shoulder the buffer tube? I still want to build a 6" 9mm with Glock lower as a road trip gun.
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Post by red on Jan 18, 2015 20:10:32 GMT
A trust would not be to good for me yet same with stamp collecting. All i can have is SBR's , no suppressors, F/auto, D.D., SBS,explosives. When i finally get to move to a free-er state i will follow the trust route. I can have others on the trust like a wife or brother that can shoot them as well. Nothing ruins a range day like no one being able to shoot the gats that are brought.
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Post by Browning35 on Jan 18, 2015 20:29:30 GMT
I have a trust that has 7 stamps. 1 SBR and 6 other form 1's for cans. There is no need to pay nearly $500 for a trust. Search around and you can find paralegal services that have them available for less than $40. PM me and I'll refer you to who I used. Basic trust documents are rather simple. So for $250 plus parts (and a wait for e-forms to process your form 1) and you have an SBR. Well, if there's one concept I believe in it's good legal representation in it's most thorough form. Yeah, I know that I could do it way cheaper by going the paralegal route and just getting the forms done by printing them off the net, but they wouldn't be able to answer my questions, I'd wonder whether all the ' T's were crossed and the ' I's were dotted and in short be waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's the real concern I had going with the paralegal/forms off the net trust. It would also be a gigantic pain in the ass if the paperwork was rejected and I had to do the whole thing over again and start the wait from zero because something wasn't filled out correctly. I understand the basic process, but I'm no lawyer and I'm not familiar with the fine print of the process or with the paperwork at all. So I wanted to get hand-held through it the first time at the very least and get aspects of the trust customized to our specific situation. Maybe after that I'd go the paralegal route for each tax stamp after that. Mostly I wanted to have several different family members on the trust so that they could use the SBR and suppressors as well specifically for hunting. Also have to become familiar with the process for taking them out of State and traveling through different States on our way to somewhere else. Also wanted to bypass the CLEO signature (from what I understand from a great deal of searches the CLEO's in Dallas simply won't sign off on then as its a haven for anti-individual freedom libtard socialists). If I went cheap and bought the documents for our trust off the internet I/we could possibly pay for that later on down the road in the form of legal hassles, money for a local attorney if it they issued the stamp and then decided that a hoop wasn't documented properly and then wanted the gun or suppressor until that was fixed or there might be a problem for my family if/when I kick off. I'm going to call the attorney on Tuesday (because Monday is a holiday) and try to get going on it. A total of one SBR and two (maybe three) Suppressors (a multi-cal for 5.56, 6.8 SPC and .308 Win and then one for .22LR and 9mm) would cover my needs really well. I'd also like a SBS as well in the form of a chopped Rem 1100 or 1187, but it would come after an SBR and the suppressors. A sub-gun like an MP-40 or a PPSH-41 would be really, really nice. However while a SBR, 2-3 suppressors and then a SBS is do-able and a total possibility once I got the other stuff taken care of, but the sub-gun is probably out of reach financially. Really guys, the paperwork is easy. E-forms is/are easy. It's just $200 per stamp. If you think about it you can easily blow $200 taking the in-laws out to dinner. To me it's not really the money. $200 isn't the amount of money it was in the mid to late 1930's. On one range trip I can go through that just in ammo costs. It's more the principal of the matter that I have to request their permission, possibly get denied and pay for something and then register an item that's associated with the right to defend my family, myself and my country. Kind of sticks in my craw. ____ @homer : I'll document the whole thing if/when I do it. Hopefully I won't be too late. Supposedly there are going to be changes to the trust process and an individual for the trust will have to get a CLEO signature. Since many refuse to do it for anyone that creates a major problem.
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Post by MrEMonkey on Jan 18, 2015 20:41:27 GMT
Filling out an ATF form 20 to ask my dirty uncle if I can take it shooting with my folks 50 miles away? Once or twice a month? I'm not disagreeing, but I hate doing my income taxes each year as well. Doesn't mean I'd rather not have an income. Drop the form 20 once a year and have it cover all the states an SBR is legal in and have it run for 365 days. Bases covered. Or stick with a 16+ inch barrel. No shame in that, better velocity as a general rule of thumb. Just not as comfy to tote about. (YMMV) Re: taxes--that's apples and oranges. I get what you're saying, but you have to recognize that it is still an infringement. Re: ATF form 20--I didn't realize you could fill it out for a year at a time. That's pretty nice that they interpret the requirement to notify them that way. At least, for now, anyway. Re: stick with 16+ inch barrel--eh, I'll keep my AR pistols, just because they are handy. But no offense, that's kind of like saying that free speech should just stick to writing letters to the newspaper and stay off the internet. I apologize if it seems like I'm ranting AT you, that's not my intent...just the infringements on our rights and the rationalization that so many seem to make in order to accept it--like all these people b*tching about "oh, stop writing letters to ATF--you're gonna get us in trouble," like the problem is people asking questions about frequently hard-to-understand and self-contradictory interpretations of a law that shouldn't exist by a bureaucracy that shouldn't exist either! It's NOT the people ASKING questions. It's the people ANSWERING them that are the problem. Because they've been given unjust authority to make those decisions "for" us.
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Post by MrEMonkey on Jan 18, 2015 20:49:07 GMT
There was something bothering me about this determination and I couldn’t put my finger on it…then I remembered. It is the place that 99% of lawyers overlook, the definition section. Very few people take notice that the definition of a handgun includes as part of the definition a “short stock”. Section 921(a)(29) declares that the definition of a handgun is “(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.” I am not sure if there has been any litigation or court decisions over what constitutes a “short stock” but it is something that needs to be investigated. Additionally, now that the atf has gone ahead, specifically on the definition of "redesigning," the law (multiple expletives deleted) states clearly that a handgun is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Clearly, using TWO hands is redesigning that firearm. I know, I'll write them a letter and ask for their opinion.
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Post by LowKey on Jan 18, 2015 21:29:07 GMT
I have a trust that has 7 stamps. 1 SBR and 6 other form 1's for cans. There is no need to pay nearly $500 for a trust. Search around and you can find paralegal services that have them available for less than $40. PM me and I'll refer you to who I used. Basic trust documents are rather simple. So for $250 plus parts (and a wait for e-forms to process your form 1) and you have an SBR. Well, if there's one concept I believe in it's good legal representation in it's most thorough form. Yeah, I know that I could do it way cheaper by going the paralegal route and just getting the forms done by printing them off the net, but they wouldn't be able to answer my questions, I'd wonder whether all the ' T's were crossed and the ' I's were dotted and in short be waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's the real concern I had going with the paralegal/forms off the net trust. It would also be a gigantic pain in the ass if the paperwork was rejected and I had to do the whole thing over again and start the wait from zero because something wasn't filled out correctly. I understand the basic process, but I'm no lawyer and I'm not familiar with the fine print of the process or with the paperwork at all. So I wanted to get hand-held through it the first time at the very least and get aspects of the trust customized to our specific situation. Maybe after that I'd go the paralegal route for each tax stamp after that. Mostly I wanted to have several different family members on the trust so that they could use the SBR and suppressors as well specifically for hunting. Also have to become familiar with the process for taking them out of State and traveling through different States on our way to somewhere else. Also wanted to bypass the CLEO signature (from what I understand from a great deal of searches the CLEO's in Dallas simply won't sign off on then as its a haven for anti-individual freedom libtard socialists). If I went cheap and bought the documents for our trust off the internet I/we could possibly pay for that later on down the road in the form of legal hassles, money for a local attorney if it they issued the stamp and then decided that a hoop wasn't documented properly and then wanted the gun or suppressor until that was fixed or there might be a problem for my family if/when I kick off. I'm going to call the attorney on Tuesday (because Monday is a holiday) and try to get going on it. A total of one SBR and two (maybe three) Suppressors (a multi-cal for 5.56, 6.8 SPC and .308 Win and then one for .22LR and 9mm) would cover my needs really well. I'd also like a SBS as well in the form of a chopped Rem 1100 or 1187, but it would come after an SBR and the suppressors. A sub-gun like an MP-40 or a PPSH-41 would be really, really nice. However while a SBR, 2-3 suppressors and then a SBS is do-able and a total possibility once I got the other stuff taken care of, but the sub-gun is probably out of reach financially. Really guys, the paperwork is easy. E-forms is/are easy. It's just $200 per stamp. If you think about it you can easily blow $200 taking the in-laws out to dinner. To me it's not really the money. $200 isn't the amount of money it was in the mid to late 1930's. On one range trip I can go through that just in ammo costs. It's more the principal of the matter that I have to request their permission, possibly get denied and pay for something and then register an item that's associated with the right to defend my family, myself and my country. Kind of sticks in my craw. ____ @homer : I'll document the whole thing if/when I do it. Hopefully I won't be too late. Supposedly there are going to be changes to the trust process and an individual for the trust will have to get a CLEO signature. Since many refuse to do it for anyone that creates a major problem. First, I completely understand and share the disgust that we have to jump through hoops to exercise our rights in this fashion without geting our dogs shot and doing prison time. Unfortunately we have to contend with it as it is at the moment. As far as the trust goes; it's a one time thing. You won't have to re-do it each time you add a tax stamp. And while I understand the desire to have your hand held, I'd suggest just reading up on trusts and trust law before you shell out a few hundred dollars. Trusts are really that simple if you don't try to complicate them. Adding items is as simple as writing them into the Schedule (list) . Normally Schedule "A". Adding Trustees...scribble them into Schedule "B". Just make sure that you trust them (no pun intended) and that they are not a prohibited possesor. It really is that simple.
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