Impediments to fireams training- Dogma, ego. and hype.

You know, I just forked over some coin to a local group that does training, and I must say I was pretty happy. It was no MilCopp, but I didn't expect it to be. Me and a buddy paid for 'one on one' time with one of the instructors (normal price is $75/hour, he cut us down to $60/hour as a FD discount, which was nice). Sounds expensive, but considering a normal class is around $120 for four hours (and a far higher student to teacher ratio), I didn't mind paying it.

The goal was to get an hour or so of shotgun training (neither my buddy nor I had any real experience with shotguns as far as HD guns) and then another hour of pistol, mostly to learn some new drills and shake the rust off. The shotgun portion was really good. We actually spent about an hour and a half, and it was fun, lots of learning occurring. The pistol portion was okay, I'm frankly higher speed at pistol stuff than my friend, so we didn't do anything fantastically different then normal range drills. Still, it was good to get a fresh set of eyes checking out draw strokes and reloads, and it's always good to re-learn the 'textbook' way to do things.

Anyway, in keeping with the point of this thread, the instructor (a younger guy, kind of a muscle-head, liked bragging about how he helped local LE agencies with training) did a few things that a person who was inexperienced might have bitten on. He discussed how racking the slide was a 'gross motor skill' versus the fine motor skill involved with using the slide release, discussed 'stopping power' at a few points, etc. Honestly, I just kind of smile and nod at this point when I hear things like that. He was overall a good instructor, though, easy going and with a good eye for details. Didn't treat us like newbs, and he was even dressed non-tactically, which was a nice change from the 5.11 khakis, ballcap, and Oakley shades that are de rigueur with instructors.

I guess my point is that I've stopped paying attention to the things that I've decided are largely myths (like 'stopping power') and if people start to talk about them, so what? Water off my back. This guys was decent enough that we're probably going to link up with him in the future to do some low light or AR stuff. Again, I'm not expecting MilCopp standards.

Another thing that bugs me is folks poo-pooing a certain round. Whether 9mm, 5.56 or whatever else. Even the 22LR will cause a wound. DOJ and FBI both have studies out showing that the main reasons people stop attacking/fighting is:
a. the defender produces a gun. I forget the exact percentage but it's in the neighborhood of 75% of the time just having a gun that bad guy can see ends the fight. Criminals want easy targets, not ones with guns.
b. The defender shoots at the attacker. hit or not, they know you're serious. I think that is another 20% or so.
c. shooting the bad guy. Whether it's lethal or not, once their shot they do not want to be shot again. That's a very small percentage.
d. Obviously killing the attacker or seriously wounding them.

Granted, I'm not saying don't train. I'm not saying don't have a rifle but for the most part, just having a gun will cover most of the majority of situations.

I do love my AR-15 though.

So,after a little bit of range time this weekend for the first time in a long time...a couple of techniques (or maybe just one) stood out to me.  The last few years, I had started working on shooting with my support hand further out.  This seems to be all the rage these days.  Makes sense, or does it?  During my reloads recently, I noticed I instinctively re-established my support hand grip either near or on the magazine well.  I know, what a fuckin' noob! Right?  Well, "back in my day" that is how we were trained to handle our M16s (and, subsequently, our M4s), particularly for "CQB"-style shooting.  Obviously, all that muscle memory worked because apparently that is my default technique.  Is that a bad thing?  Dunno.  Let me try, if I may, to break down the 2 techniques and offer some of my thoughts.

I believe the hand-forward method began with roots in the competition/3-gun crowd.  Cool.  I dig it.  It is a specialized technique developed by a niche of shooters to fit their needs.  I have witnessed some hand-forward techniques border on the retarded, and by that I consider your arm completely straight out (nearly locked-out) with thumbs wrapping over and around stuff.  This is just my opinion and I am open to hearing some valid points in favor of it.  From what I gather, the advocates for such posit that it allows the shooter to better "drive" the sights to the target and control the weapon.  Kinda makes sense, but I don't buy it.  Again, I see this technique derived from a shooting crowd that shoots in very sterile environments where they know and practice a specific course of fire, watch others run the same course, game the game, and even time when or what station to conduct reloads and such.  You know, good for them.

Secondly, that shit just looks cool.  Also, it gives the industry something new to talk about and, thusly, everyone else begins to keep up with the Jones's.

So let's address the "drive" the sights argument.  I honestly have never felt that a foward grip drove my sights on target any faster than a magwell grip.  Some say abbreviated magwell-style grips have a tendency to over-travel across the target.  Meh, in being completely honest and true to my experiences, I do not recall that ever being a problem.  I mean, if you have a ton of shit on the end of your AR or a 20" barrel with a 10lb weight hanging of the end, I can see momentum getting the best of you.  However, that does not seem to be problem with most of us who are shooting well balanced ARs with barrel lengths averaging at 16".

Controlling the weapon?  Assuming we are all shooting ARs or modern military-style sporting rifles in intermediate rifle calibers, the recoil is not a factor that has to be hugely accounted for.  If you feel the need to mitigate the recoil from a 5.56mm AR, then you might need to harden the fuck up a little bit before playing with big boy toys, just sayin'. Keeping the sights on target for follow-up shots is more a function of having a proper cheek weld and having the stock tight in the pocket of the shoulder.  Practices not exclusive to throwing your support hand as far out as possible.

OK, so now I just made fun of the techniques that are very popular to the point of being gospel these days.

But, Omega, what's so great about gripping the magwell?  Well, maybe nothing, but let me at least make the case for it and put it into context of modern day gunfighting.

First of all, I counter that a tight body stance, a-la a modern fighting stance, offers more control.  Do you see old timey boxing styles anymore? No, because it is fucking stupid.  Supporting your rifle at or near the magwell keeps your elbows tucked in nice and tight.  This is good.  This is also a very stable position.  How about driving the sights?  Well, you can still do that.  Transitions between targets should be done by rotating your body at the hips (think tank turrent) not swinging your arms back and forth.  Also, try room clearing or staying locked in an extended gunfight using a hand-forward method.  Your ass (and your arm) is going to tire really quick...there goes driving those sights.  Also, a combat zone is not full of targets neatly lined up in an attempt to make hand-foward shooting more effective. Now, how about them elbows tucked in nice and tight while clearing rooms? Shooting around corners? Kneeling? Wearing body armor???  Starting to sound more comfortable now, huh? Shit, I bet it is even effective at accurately putting rounds into dirtbags.  Ask me how I know

How about re-establing your support grip after a reload (the event that lead me to all this nonsense).  Hell, your hand is already there at the magwell.  Grab that shit and get 'a shootin' right quick and forget about getting your dick-skinner situated perfectly between a couple of carefully placed handstops and whatnot.  Furthermore, I bet with a little practice you could quickly and effortlessly hit that bolt release with your thumb as you are fixin' to tighten up around that magwell.  I will take this all one step further and hypothesize that you will also greatly diminish your chances of getting snagged on your sling or other shit while not flinging your hand 10"-15" in front of you after reloading.


Ok, then, Omega, you smart-ass, what do you recommend?  Honestly, the best technique is likely somewhere there in the middle.  The best technique is also what is working best for you.  Personally, I am going to go back near the magwell for awhile.  Always treated me well.  Not that the hand-forward is without merit, it's just that I am starting to see it as the end-all be-all, and that is hardly ever the case for anything.  Remember, there are a whole lot of dudes out there (especially out-of-work prior service "operators") that have to make their living now "innovating" new dynamic shooting concepts and selling those ideas (and affiliated hardware) to us.

Whew!  Glad I got that out of me!  

I couldn't agree more Omega. Seriously, that arm at full extension is silly. First, looking at it from a physiological perspective you're only using shoulder muscle to control the muzzle end. Shoulder muscles and the associated stablizer muscles are relatively weak compared to the bicep/tricep that you'll use when using a traditional or magwell grip.

Like you said and I can prove very easily, you're going to get more recoil mitigation from a modern boxer stance than some unnatural C clamp grip. Try this test for anyone doubting, put you feet together like a monopod, now shoulder and shoot your gun rapidly. Huh, look at that muzzle climb doe! Now, square up to the target, now, feet shoulder width apart, one in front of the other with the knee bent, the rear pushing forward like you're about to spring off with heel slightly lifted. Lean about 15-20 degrees forward and push your left shoulder slightly forward.

Hit the giggle switch while using a neutral hold on the handguard with the buttstock in the shoulder pocket. Huh, look at that, the muzzle barely moves. Loads of recoil and muzzle rise comes from the waist leaning back. If you let the waist move back then or vertical the muzzle will rise.

This works for any rifle, big bore hunting gun kicking your ass? Lean into it and hold it into your shoulder. Gee, it's like the recoil was cut in half.

Anywho, Omega be droppin' that haut skreet knowledeges.

You're right asc, it's a lot of preference and there are thousands of way to skin a cat.

I don't have much to contribute here, but I find that lower body stance isn't as important as most lead up to. I'm a big subscriber to "You're wither shooting, moving or reloading, or you're dead." I try to practice getting off the X on the draw as much as possible, and maintaining sideways movement as I shoot and load if I can still get hits. A good, but not excessive, forward lean is always good. When shooting pistol, I tend to be as modern isosceles as anybody had fucking ever seen. I actually cheekweld my arms. I also probably look somewhat clownshoes as I turn my head to the right to align my dominant left eye to the gun in my dominant right hand. It works for me, so I stick with it. Being cross dominant is a bitch, this mitigates it and keeps both my eyes open shooting pistol.

Back in the mall-ninjaing about with my 15-22 days, I was about as MagpulCostaC-Clamp as one has ever seen. What can I say, I pretty much learned to shoot initially from those videos, and they were a great help. As I've gotten older and have shot more, I find that hand is a lot more comfortable drawn in a bit. As a comfortable medium, I find myself with my hand neatly at the end of a midlength handguard now. I was practicing "rifle draws" (please give me a correct term, I'm a terminology nazi) and was trying to C-clamp, and my body basically wouldn't let me intuitively do it. I found myself about an inch rearward, and stuck with it, because I it felt natural and was consistent. I'm pretty much as close a blank slate on rifle as it gets now, but I found that working well, and will stick with it as long as I keep it consistent.

I think a main theme of it all is being consistent. If you have something that works well, and can execute it the same way every time, and your results don't suck, do it. On the other end, if you consistently suck because you've been stuck in the same rut, maybe it's time to look outwards for a change in your technique.

That said, I'm looking forward to some training this summer.

On the topic of impediments to training: My redneck buddies (sure I've mentioned them a thousand times here) use the same shitty techniques that was taught to them by there dad who used to hunt to put food on the table. No modern technique "works for them" and they handle guns like they are anatomical freaks. One runs the rear sight on his AR most the war forward on his upper, because it "helps him focus on the rear sight better," and runs his stock all the way out despite being three inches shorter than me. I run mine two or three clicks out. This puts him in this fucked up stance where he is leaning back to align with the sights. His brother who "can shoot the asshole out of a gnat at 300 yerds with a .22" is convinced that every time he hands me a "man's gun" his bolt action .300WSM that it will blow me away with the wind with recoil with the stance I use. Both used firearms a lot as kids, both thinks this serves as all the training they'll ever need. Almost had the first convinced to take a pistol class with me, the second is "the best shot he knows" even though he can barely get center of mass hits with his "SWAT issue" Sig P245, therefore never needs training.

Dogma. Ego. Defined. These doods will never train, because they have shot their entire lives. I choose to train, because I learned about guns playing Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid when I was a kid, and know it pretty much amounts to the same shit their "minute of gnat's asshole" attitude gets.