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Post by shiddymunkie on Dec 17, 2013 2:27:12 GMT
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Post by shiddymunkie on Dec 19, 2013 0:24:16 GMT
"Pierson managed to fire just five rounds before turning the weapon on himself as a school resource officer closed in on the school library. The incident lasted just 80 seconds." www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/17/new-details-emerge-in-arapahoe-high-school-shooting/4070815/I think the fact that this shooter intended on inflicting much more carnage than he did, but was unable to due to the presence an on-site officer, is a testament to that concept being viable way to help combat this type of incident. More (armed) officers at schools = less time/opportunity for a rampage. None of these shooters are looking to shoot it out with cops, nor do they want to risk having to "face the music" of their actions (jail/public scorn). In fact, they dislike that so much that they'd rather kill themselves than deal with those things...which is why in almost every instance they the kill themselves the moment armed authorities show up. |
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Post by dannusmaximus on Dec 19, 2013 19:32:36 GMT
"Pierson managed to fire just five rounds before turning the weapon on himself as a school resource officer closed in on the school library. The incident lasted just 80 seconds." www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/17/new-details-emerge-in-arapahoe-high-school-shooting/4070815/I think the fact that this shooter intended on inflicting much more carnage than he did, but was unable to due to the presence an on-site officer, is a testament to that concept being viable way to help combat this type of incident. More (armed) officers at schools = less time/opportunity for a rampage. None of these shooters are looking to shoot it out with cops, nor do they want to risk having to "face the music" of their actions (jail/public scorn). In fact, they dislike that so much that they'd rather kill themselves than deal with those things...which is why in almost every instance they the kill themselves the moment armed authorities show up. To be fair, he was using a pump shotgun. All things being equal, a pump shotgun is harder to load, harder to operate, much slower to fire, much lower ammunition capacity, and has much more difficult to control recoil then an 'assault rifle'. He probably could have gotten an entire magazine (or more) sent downrange in the same amount of time if he was using an AR or AK. I don't think we can say with authority that the on-site officer being present is THE reason there wasn't more carnage. We (the shooting public) are being disingenuous if we don't admit that certain types of firearms make it much, MUCH easier to inflict massive casualties in an incident like this. I think law-abiding people should absolutely be allowed to own modern sporting rifles. I also understand that they are among the most efficient ways to kill and maim people that we've yet invented (which don't involve a crew or vehicle to operate). That said, I am a proponent of having armed officers (off-duty LE or highly trained security) at schools. |
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 19, 2013 19:57:32 GMT
I remember having this given to us in a ce class. Some off themselves, some are subdued by bystanders or killed by police and some just leave. In the number of people killed and injured being due to him using a shotgun there's this douchebag who killed five, wounded four and engaged police before they finally shot him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shootingThe shooter in the case above seemed more motivated to hurt people. Maybe the guy in the OP just wanted to kill himself in a grand way (' grand' in this case being pretty twisted, but you know what I mean). |
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Post by shiddymunkie on Dec 21, 2013 0:45:04 GMT
To be fair, he was using a pump shotgun. All things being equal, a pump shotgun is harder to load, harder to operate, much slower to fire, much lower ammunition capacity, and has much more difficult to control recoil then an 'assault rifle'. He probably could have gotten an entire magazine (or more) sent downrange in the same amount of time if he was using an AR or AK. I don't think we can say with authority that the on-site officer being present is THE reason there wasn't more carnage. We (the shooting public) are being disingenuous if we don't admit that certain types of firearms make it much, MUCH easier to inflict massive casualties in an incident like this. I think law-abiding people should absolutely be allowed to own modern sporting rifles. I also understand that they are among the most efficient ways to kill and maim people that we've yet invented (which don't involve a crew or vehicle to operate). That said, I am a proponent of having armed officers (off-duty LE or highly trained security) at schools. I agree that we cannot say for sure that the armed guard was the one and only reason why this shooting wasn't more destructive than it was. Without more instances where armed authorities were on scene at the time of a school shooting, nothing can really be concluded for certain. With that being said, I think its reasonable to assume (at least to some degree) that the immanent threat of an armed guard had an impact. Like you said, pump-action shotguns are harder to reload, have limited capacity, slower to fire, etc...those are all issues that would be amplified by armed personnel being on scene. |
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Post by shiddymunkie on Dec 21, 2013 1:00:24 GMT
I remember having this given to us in a ce class. Some off themselves, some are subdued by bystanders or killed by police and some just leave. In the number of people killed and injured being due to him using a shotgun there's this douchebag who killed five, wounded four and engaged police before they finally shot him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shootingThe shooter in the case above seemed more motivated to hurt people. Maybe the guy in the OP just wanted to kill himself in a grand way (' grand' in this case being pretty twisted, but you know what I mean). Very informative stuff there. I would, however, like to see a more granular breakdown specifically focusing on school shootings, which only account for about 1/3 of the shootings in the above study. Perhaps its just because of the type of school shootings MSM focuses on, but they seem to have certain characteristics that are not necessarily shared by other ASE's. Perhaps I'll do a little bit of research and see what I can find. [Ninja Edit] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_StatesFrom Columbine (1999) to Present (Dec 2013), there have been 8 school "mass shootings" in the US. I put that in quotations because there is no official definition of "mass shooting", but the informal definition follows that of mass murder, i.e. where the assailant kills 4 or more people (not including themselves). Of the 8 mass school shootings, there were 9 assailants, and of those 9 assailants 7 committed suicide before being caught. That's just shy of 80% (77.8% to be more precise). |
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 21, 2013 4:33:03 GMT
The thing is if you limit the numbers to only include those incidents where the active shooter managed to murder at least 4 people that means that the shooter was successful to some degree and that they weren't stopped almost immediately when confronted by someone with a CHL, tackled or subdued by people at the scene or confronted/shot by a police officer. Since they were successful in killing several victims and possibly wounding an even larger number of people they might feel that their self assigned mission was complete and if they had any kind of suicidal ideation going on that this would be the time to end their life before their apprehension by law enforcement. See what I mean? By restricting to that year you're also going to miss incidents like these... 1997 Pearl High School shooting (*Click for link*)
Parker Middle School Dance Shooting 1998 (*Click for link*)Limiting your stats to only include those where the active shooter was successful in doing what they came there to do you're going to automatically skew the results you're looking for since there are only a short number of possible outcomes (subdued or killed by bystanders, shot or confronted by CHL or other civilian with a gun, suicide, leave the scene or wait around for their inevitable confrontation and possible shootout with police). This is just my round-about way of saying that there are as many motivations for this kind of behavior as there are people. Many of these freaks are suicidal, but they lack the courage to kill themselves, they're somewhat narcissistic and they want one last grand gesture to make a statement before this gives them the impetus to go ahead and finally do it. I think these are the people you're talking about and they seem to make up a pretty large segment of the people that do this kind of thing. Some of them are different and they try escape the scene to draw the whole thing out longer. Either that or they'll stay to shoot it out with the police because that's how they view themselves, fighting it out to the bitter end and being a badass. |
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Post by dannusmaximus on Dec 21, 2013 18:50:19 GMT
Either that or they'll stay to shoot it out with the police because that's how they view themselves, fighting it out to the bitter end and being a badass. I think we can all truly thank god that the folks generally doing these things are NOT badasses. Our small arms have advanced to the point that we have mentally ill (to one degree or another) teens and pre-teens who can rack up a horrific body count using crap guns and with zero training. One or two people who are really dedicated and have the skills and equipment to maximize casualties? I honestly think they could kill or wound hundreds of people with just small arms alone before the cops or armed citizens finally got them shut down. |
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Post by RTF Squared on Dec 21, 2013 21:10:47 GMT
^This is spot on right here. It was said that the Aurora theater shooter's AR15 went down for a solid minute when his 100 round magazine jammed. If he had a good carbine class and function-tested his equipment it could have been much, much worse. I haven't heard anything yet, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear the school shooter used birdshot for this shooting.
On the same note, I really can't wrap my head around how these shooters can kill innocents like that. Although she isn't dead, just how in the fuck can you shoot Claire Davis in the back of the head at point blank range? What thought process leads you to want to waste your teacher? I can't fathom either of these. I've had some horrible teachers in my day, the worst thing I ever wanted to shoot at them was an email....
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 21, 2013 23:51:05 GMT
I know they aren't, but that's why many of them wear all black or camo, buy the biggest gun they can (most of them aren't gun people) and so on. They're trying to be badasses.
Why wear camo into a McDonalds? It's about trying to adopt a persona.
To them it's about trying to kill as many people as possible within as short amount of time as possible and adopting the trappings of what they think a badass looks like. Think these fuckers are going to buckle down with the dedication it takes to be a real badass? Not a fucking chance, but that doesn't mean that they won't try to appear like one. Plus if they manage to kill a whole bunch of people everyone will hate their guts and in turn morph them into someone powerful. To them it's better than being the pathetic little nobody they've been their whole life.
yeah, sure if someone with some real skill went nuts and tried to do something like this it would be a whole different ball game.
I guess I could have put 'trying to be a badass', but I figured you guys would know what I meant.
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Post by shiddymunkie on Dec 22, 2013 0:32:22 GMT
The thing is if you limit the numbers to only include those incidents where the active shooter managed to murder at least 4 people that means that the shooter was successful to some degree and that they weren't stopped almost immediately when confronted by someone with a CHL, tackled or subdued by people at the scene or confronted/shot by a police officer. Since they were successful in killing several victims and possibly wounding an even larger number of people they might feel that their self assigned mission was complete and if they had any kind of suicidal ideation going on that this would be the time to end their life before their apprehension by law enforcement. See what I mean? By restricting to that year you're also going to miss incidents like these... Just a point of clarification -- I'm not limiting the stats in selective ways in order to suggest a specific conclusion. I simply chose the same time frame as the study you linked to (columbine to current), and limited the results to those that fit the definition of a "mass shooting" (which is defined as having 4 or more shooting-related deaths akin to the FBI's definition of "mass murder"). Like you were saying though, there are many reasons behind why school shootings happen, but most fell into one of just a few categories, i.e. "gang-related", those that arose from a "personal dispute", and then there were "mass shootings" which were random acts of violence against no one in particular. They all have different sets of characteristics they follow, and those that follow the ones indicative of a "mass shooting" end in suicide about 80% of the time. It's all right here, just note the kill/injury counts and read the description of each incident. You'll quickly start seeing the trends between the number of victims, the motivation behind the shootings, and (based on those things) how they typically end. From what we know about this most recent shooting, it actually seemed to fit the characteristics of a " personal dispute" shooting and not a "mass shooting", which may explain why more people were not hurt. Of course, I can only hypothesize. |
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Post by RTF Squared on Dec 22, 2013 2:43:13 GMT
Looks like Claire Davis didn't make it. In respect to what B35 said, real tough guy here, shot an innocent girl in the back of the head where she sat. Yeah, real damned tough.
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2013 3:00:23 GMT
Okay, cool. That's what I thought you were doing, meaning that by selecting only certain incidents (the incidents with the higher body counts) and using that as your pool to draw those stats from that you're going to reach a biased conclusion.
Link doesn't work.
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Post by Browning35 on Dec 22, 2013 3:06:01 GMT
Looks like Claire Davis didn't make it. In respect to what B35 said, real tough guy here, shot an innocent girl in the back of the head where she sat. Yeah, real damned tough. That sucks, hadn't heard. I was hoping she'd pull through. Would have been awesome if the only guy to die at the scene was the shooter. Couldn't believe she held on as long as she did since it was close range to the head with a shotgun. Thought maybe she had only gotten hit by part of the pattern. |
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Post by RTF Squared on Dec 22, 2013 3:48:31 GMT
I just heard about it an hour ago. I was hoping the exact same thing. I honestly thought he was using birdshot considering she held on that long from a point blank range. I figured if she held on that long she would have made it.
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